Recently, well actually a few months ago, I filed a bug regarding the default font configuration on Fedora installs. The default font configuration just looks wrong and leads to browser font rendering in both Firefox and Chrome that looks radically different from what it normally looks like on Windows and Mac OS. Ubuntu manages to do this correctly and I actually had to copy their font configuration to get things to look right. This is a really annoying manual configuration step I really shouldn't have to do with something as polished as Fedora.
This issue is critical because the web-browser is where we spend 90% of our time and is the most important graphical application on any modern system and the font-config should be properly set to optimize that experience.
Steps to fix this problem:
1. Install 'freetype-freeworld' from RPMFusion for LCD filtering. 2. Copy Ubuntu's font configs to '/etc/fonts/conf.d' 3. Enable RGB sub-pixel in the desktop environment font configuration.
Please take a look at the bug for more details.
[1] https://bugzilla.redhat.com/show_bug.cgi?id=1036220
So this leads to a few questions about how this is setup:
A) What is the scope of desktop environment based font-configuration?
Basically if I enable and configure this from the GNOME or KDE system settings shouldn't it apply to all applications even the browser? If the desktop environment fails to set the proper font anti-aliasing in the browser is this a bug specific to that environment? Are there applications that for technical reasons are separate from the desktop environment such as Google Chrome that uses it's own font rendering engine?
B) Since the patents have expired shouldn't freetype-freeworld be included by default?
C) Shouldn't system-wide font-config be controllable from a simple 'system-config-fonts' program?
Ideally a solution to this is to create a small application that runs in the terminal that allows the user to set the system-wide font-config. This way users don't have to manually edit the '/etc/fonts/conf.d' files. In the short-term this should provide some relief.
Thanks.
I'm not going to relate to all your points, but: To make the fonts look right you don't need to install 3rd party stuff. Just change the hinting to Slight in gnome-tweak-tool. I think Slight hinting should be the default. Without it, fonts looks fuzzy.
Elad I appreciate the quick response but using gnome-tweak-tool has no effect on font-rendering in applications like web-browsers and doesn't fix the problem.
On Wed, Apr 23, 2014 at 8:55 AM, Elad Alfassa elad@fedoraproject.orgwrote:
I'm not going to relate to all your points, but: To make the fonts look right you don't need to install 3rd party stuff. Just change the hinting to Slight in gnome-tweak-tool. I think Slight hinting should be the default. Without it, fonts looks fuzzy.
-- -Elad Alfassa.
-- desktop mailing list desktop@lists.fedoraproject.org https://admin.fedoraproject.org/mailman/listinfo/desktop
On Wed, Apr 23, 2014 at 4:17 PM, Alex G.S. alxgrtnstrngl@gmail.com wrote:
Elad I appreciate the quick response but using gnome-tweak-tool has no effect on font-rendering in applications like web-browsers and doesn't fix the problem.
It does here. Fonts aren't fuzzy in Firefox for me, I see no problem.
Perhaps we're mixing up the fuzzy fonts issue, that's not the problem I'm describing. World of GNOME has a great article on this and I think you should read it. The article includes a screenshot.
[2] http://worldofgnome.org/how-to-greatly-improve-font-rendering-under-fedora-2...
On Wed, Apr 23, 2014 at 9:20 AM, Elad Alfassa elad@fedoraproject.orgwrote:
On Wed, Apr 23, 2014 at 4:17 PM, Alex G.S. alxgrtnstrngl@gmail.comwrote:
Elad I appreciate the quick response but using gnome-tweak-tool has no effect on font-rendering in applications like web-browsers and doesn't fix the problem.
It does here. Fonts aren't fuzzy in Firefox for me, I see no problem.
-- -Elad Alfassa.
-- desktop mailing list desktop@lists.fedoraproject.org https://admin.fedoraproject.org/mailman/listinfo/desktop
On Wed, Apr 23, 2014 at 4:28 PM, Alex G.S. alxgrtnstrngl@gmail.com wrote:
Perhaps we're mixing up the fuzzy fonts issue, that's not the problem I'm describing. World of GNOME has a great article on this and I think you should read it. The article includes a screenshot.
[2] http://worldofgnome.org/how-to-greatly-improve-font-rendering-under-fedora-2...
I'm not seeing this issue here, with Fedora 21
I'm not seeing this issue here, with Fedora 21
I'm currently on Fedora 20 and the problem is very obvious on a new Fedora 20 install. Did they make major changes to the font-configs on Fedora 21 that I may not be aware of yet? Specifically referring to font-configs in '/etc/fonts/conf.d'?
On Wed, Apr 23, 2014 at 9:31 AM, Elad Alfassa elad@fedoraproject.orgwrote:
On Wed, Apr 23, 2014 at 4:28 PM, Alex G.S. alxgrtnstrngl@gmail.comwrote:
Perhaps we're mixing up the fuzzy fonts issue, that's not the problem I'm describing. World of GNOME has a great article on this and I think you should read it. The article includes a screenshot.
[2] http://worldofgnome.org/how-to-greatly-improve-font-rendering-under-fedora-2...
I'm not seeing this issue here, with Fedora 21
-- -Elad Alfassa.
-- desktop mailing list desktop@lists.fedoraproject.org https://admin.fedoraproject.org/mailman/listinfo/desktop
On Wed, Apr 23, 2014 at 4:34 PM, Alex G.S. alxgrtnstrngl@gmail.com wrote:
I'm not seeing this issue here, with Fedora 21
I'm currently on Fedora 20 and the problem is very obvious on a new Fedora 20 install. Did they make major changes to the font-configs on Fedora 21 that I may not be aware of yet? Specifically referring to font-configs in '/etc/fonts/conf.d'?
No, I have not made any changes apart from changing the default hinting to slight in tweak tool.
Alex G.S. wrote:
I'm currently on Fedora 20 and the problem is very obvious on a new Fedora 20 install. Did they make major changes to the font-configs on Fedora 21 that I may not be aware of yet? Specifically referring to font-configs in '/etc/fonts/conf.d'?
Read Michael Catanzaro's e-mail.
Fedora 20 upgraded to a new Freetype that defaulted to a new font rendering engine. The default Gnome font (Cantarell) is broken in this rendering engine. You can switch fonts or downgrade freetype. Changing the system default fontconfig files (/etc/fonts/conf.d) won't fix this.
On Wed, Apr 23, 2014 at 4:44 PM, Michael Cronenworth mike@cchtml.comwrote:
Changing the system default fontconfig files won't fix this.
Actually, we can change the Cantarell fontconfig file to instruct the system to only use slight autohinting on that font, thus making it not-fuzzy and very readable.
Elad Alfassa wrote:
Actually, we can change the Cantarell fontconfig file to instruct the system to only use slight autohinting on that font, thus making it not-fuzzy and very readable.
If you follow my trail of bug reports and e-mails you'll see I have invested a lot of time in the cause of this and the only workarounds I found were the ones I listed for Alex. Hinting with the Adobe engine is broken no matter what setting you choose.
On Wed, Apr 23, 2014 at 4:50 PM, Michael Cronenworth mike@cchtml.comwrote:
Elad Alfassa wrote:
Actually, we can change the Cantarell fontconfig file to instruct the system to only use slight autohinting on that font, thus making it not-fuzzy and very readable.
If you follow my trail of bug reports and e-mails you'll see I have invested a lot of time in the cause of this and the only workarounds I found were the ones I listed for Alex. Hinting with the Adobe engine is broken no matter what setting you choose.
If it's really broken it should be removed upstream. Nevertheless, it's not broken here if I set it to slight, therefor your argument is invalid.
The problem I'm referring to has nothing to do with fuzzy-fonts or with Cantarell. Please read the following bug-report and article that describes the problem I'm referring to. The problem affects a very wide variety of fonts and how they're rendered in web-browsers. Using desktop environment tools such as gnome-tweak-tool does not fix the problems.
[1] https://bugzilla.redhat.com/show_bug.cgi?id=1036220 [2] http://worldofgnome.org/how-to-greatly-improve-font-rendering-under-fedora-2...
I'm just looking for more information and some indication that the problem can be fixed eliminating the need for external scripts or manual configuration.
On Wed, Apr 23, 2014 at 9:54 AM, Elad Alfassa elad@fedoraproject.orgwrote:
On Wed, Apr 23, 2014 at 4:50 PM, Michael Cronenworth mike@cchtml.comwrote:
Elad Alfassa wrote:
Actually, we can change the Cantarell fontconfig file to instruct the system to only use slight autohinting on that font, thus making it not-fuzzy and very readable.
If you follow my trail of bug reports and e-mails you'll see I have invested a lot of time in the cause of this and the only workarounds I found were the ones I listed for Alex. Hinting with the Adobe engine is broken no matter what setting you choose.
If it's really broken it should be removed upstream. Nevertheless, it's not broken here if I set it to slight, therefor your argument is invalid.
-- -Elad Alfassa.
-- desktop mailing list desktop@lists.fedoraproject.org https://admin.fedoraproject.org/mailman/listinfo/desktop
Font rendering is a very subjective topic, and one that people like to complain endlessly about. There's certainly no single 'correct' rendering, but instead a continuum depending on whether you put more emphasis on sharpness or shape or uniformity. And which style of rendering you prefer depends on your vision, personal preference and prior experience with rendering on other systems.
I myself am perfectly fine with the way fonts appear out of the box on Fedora. Maybe I am just not very picky when it comes to fonts.
Matthias
And which style of rendering you prefer depends on your vision,
personal preference and prior experience with rendering on other systems.
The standard on what you or I want is irrelevant. Windows, Mac and the mobile platforms iOS/Android define the baseline for font-rendering and this is the standard for which web-designers work hard to craft their pages. Relative to those systems Fedora's out-of-the-box configuration is incorrect and out of place.
I myself am perfectly fine with the way fonts appear out of the box on
Fedora. Maybe I am just not very picky when it comes to fonts.
As long as I have a great terminal color-scheme I'm happy but I also think that great looking web-pages are also important too.
On Wed, Apr 23, 2014 at 2:35 PM, Matthias Clasen mclasen@redhat.com wrote:
Font rendering is a very subjective topic, and one that people like to complain endlessly about. There's certainly no single 'correct' rendering, but instead a continuum depending on whether you put more emphasis on sharpness or shape or uniformity. And which style of rendering you prefer depends on your vision, personal preference and prior experience with rendering on other systems.
I myself am perfectly fine with the way fonts appear out of the box on Fedora. Maybe I am just not very picky when it comes to fonts.
Matthias
-- desktop mailing list desktop@lists.fedoraproject.org https://admin.fedoraproject.org/mailman/listinfo/desktop
Just chiming in again. I wasn't able to participate in the naming of Fedora 20 but I LOVE it.
Best name yet :) P.S. Can't wait to fire up a brand new Fedora 20 stick--- it might be a few weeks though. Until then I am living vicariously through your conversations....
-Matthew
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________________________________ From: Alex G.S. alxgrtnstrngl@gmail.com To: Discussions about development for the Fedora desktop desktop@lists.fedoraproject.org Sent: Wednesday, April 23, 2014 1:50 PM Subject: Re: Default font configuration doesn't look right on Fedora...
And which style of rendering you prefer depends on your vision,
personal preference and prior experience with rendering on other systems. The standard on what you or I want is irrelevant. Windows, Mac and the mobile platforms iOS/Android define the baseline for font-rendering and this is the standard for which web-designers work hard to craft their pages. Relative to those systems Fedora's out-of-the-box configuration is incorrect and out of place.
I myself am perfectly fine with the way fonts appear out of the box on
Fedora. Maybe I am just not very picky when it comes to fonts.
As long as I have a great terminal color-scheme I'm happy but I also think that great looking web-pages are also important too.
On Wed, Apr 23, 2014 at 2:35 PM, Matthias Clasen mclasen@redhat.com wrote:
Font rendering is a very subjective topic, and one that people like to
complain endlessly about. There's certainly no single 'correct' rendering, but instead a continuum depending on whether you put more emphasis on sharpness or shape or uniformity. And which style of rendering you prefer depends on your vision, personal preference and prior experience with rendering on other systems.
I myself am perfectly fine with the way fonts appear out of the box on Fedora. Maybe I am just not very picky when it comes to fonts.
Matthias
-- desktop mailing list desktop@lists.fedoraproject.org https://admin.fedoraproject.org/mailman/listinfo/desktop
Matthias Clasen píše v St 23. 04. 2014 v 14:35 -0400:
Font rendering is a very subjective topic, and one that people like to complain endlessly about. There's certainly no single 'correct' rendering, but instead a continuum depending on whether you put more emphasis on sharpness or shape or uniformity. And which style of rendering you prefer depends on your vision, personal preference and prior experience with rendering on other systems.
I myself am perfectly fine with the way fonts appear out of the box on Fedora. Maybe I am just not very picky when it comes to fonts.
Matthias
I don't think it's entirely a subjective topic. There are things that objectively need improvement. I always used Ubuntu font and it's own settings, but I got a new laptop last week and installed Fedora with all the defaults. I was surprised that Cantarell font actually improved, but overall I found font experience in Fedora very displeasing and ended up tweaking it for the whole day.
What's definitely most annoying is that rendering differs radically even within one app. The more apps adopt WebKit the more it's visible because WebKit doesn't honor the same font configuration as GTK. It's frankly terrible that e.g. in Evolution the UI font has medium hinting and the font of emails has apparently slight hinting and sometimes you have different settings within one email message (quoted text has medium hinting, your reply has slight hinting). The same goes for Empathy where you write a message in medium hinted font and when you hit Enter it pops up in slightly hinted font. Font rendering in Firefox is also very different from the rest of the system.
So no matter if we go one way (font rendering similar to Windows and OS X) or the other we should assure font rendering consistency across the desktop, at least in pre-installed apps. I hope that the whole Fedora Workstation initiative will improve this since fonts are an important part of the user experience.
Jiri
On Wed, 2014-04-23 at 15:55 +0300, Elad Alfassa wrote:
I'm not going to relate to all your points, but:
To make the fonts look right you don't need to install 3rd party stuff. Just change the hinting to Slight in gnome-tweak-tool. I think Slight hinting should be the default. Without it, fonts looks fuzzy.
Keep in mind that Cantarell's hinting is broken, so the more hinting it receives, the fuzzier it gets. [1] And Cantarell is used all over the place by default, so going down to slight hinting will make GNOME look a lot better... but a GNOME bug probably shouldn't dictate the default.
I'm not an expert, so this is really all I have to say about that.
Hello Alex,
I'm no expert in the font field and for that reason I rely on information that I find online. Which means to me that your information is valid like anything else I find.
Here is a link to a blog which might interest you: http://sams0n.blog.com/2012/01/23/making-fonts-in-linux-browsers-look-exactl... And I have setup my browsers accordingly.
I would expect that 'sans', 'serif' and 'mono-space' function as system wide aliases in any application, but my experience is that I get better results when I configure any browser by naming the correct fonts.
By the way, I also find 'opinions' of people who don't like Ubuntu's font rendering.
Enjoy your system! Wilbert van Bakel
On Wed, Apr 23, 2014 at 7:53 AM, Alex G.S. alxgrtnstrngl@gmail.com wrote:
The default font configuration just looks wrong and leads to browser font rendering in both Firefox and Chrome that looks radically different from what it normally looks like on Windows and Mac OS.
desktop@lists.fedoraproject.org