The live cd has a very hard time shrinking below 700M, and it is not going to get better when it switches to use a dracut initrd.
One way to make sufficient room on the live cd would be to drop Gimp.
This has been proposed independently, on the grounds that it is not a very good fit for the live cd audience anyway (where we probably at most need the occasional photo touch ups), and its UI is somewhat unconventional.
There is probably not going to be any alternative to this step, due to the hard size limits, but I'd like to give people a chance to comment first, anyway. So, comments ?
Matthias
Matthias Clasen (mclasen@redhat.com) said:
The live cd has a very hard time shrinking below 700M, and it is not going to get better when it switches to use a dracut initrd.
One way to make sufficient room on the live cd would be to drop Gimp.
This has been proposed independently, on the grounds that it is not a very good fit for the live cd audience anyway (where we probably at most need the occasional photo touch ups), and its UI is somewhat unconventional.
Do we want to move cheese to the main desktop group, and then just drop the graphics group from the CD entirely? (It would also avoid the f-spot machinations.)
Bill
On Tue, 2009-08-04 at 15:47 -0400, Bill Nottingham wrote:
Matthias Clasen (mclasen@redhat.com) said:
The live cd has a very hard time shrinking below 700M, and it is not going to get better when it switches to use a dracut initrd.
One way to make sufficient room on the live cd would be to drop Gimp.
This has been proposed independently, on the grounds that it is not a very good fit for the live cd audience anyway (where we probably at most need the occasional photo touch ups), and its UI is somewhat unconventional.
Do we want to move cheese to the main desktop group, and then just drop the graphics group from the CD entirely? (It would also avoid the f-spot machinations.)
Yeah, that sounds like a good way to achieve this.
-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE----- Hash: SHA1
On 08/04/2009 08:51 PM, Matthias Clasen wrote:
There is probably not going to be any alternative to this step, due to the hard size limits, but I'd like to give people a chance to comment first, anyway. So, comments ?
+1
As Bill said, it also makes sense for me to just drop the graphics group.
Cheers,
Gianluca
i never used them too. same as above people.
On Wed, Aug 5, 2009 at 2:38 AM, Gianluca Variscogvarisco@redhat.com wrote:
-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE----- Hash: SHA1
On 08/04/2009 08:51 PM, Matthias Clasen wrote:
There is probably not going to be any alternative to this step, due to the hard size limits, but I'd like to give people a chance to comment first, anyway. So, comments ?
+1
As Bill said, it also makes sense for me to just drop the graphics group.
Cheers,
Gianluca
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-- Fedora-desktop-list mailing list Fedora-desktop-list@redhat.com https://www.redhat.com/mailman/listinfo/fedora-desktop-list
On 08/04/2009 09:51 PM, Matthias Clasen wrote:
This has been proposed independently, on the grounds that it is not a very good fit for the live cd audience anyway (where we probably at most need the occasional photo touch ups), and its UI is somewhat unconventional.
There is probably not going to be any alternative to this step, due to the hard size limits, but I'd like to give people a chance to comment first, anyway. So, comments ?
Can you please define the audience of the Live CD? It is the disk we usually handle to people coming at various events to advertise Fedora and honestly I don't feel comfortable spreading discs with no useful applications on them.
On Wed, 2009-08-05 at 10:00 +0300, Nicu Buculei wrote:
On 08/04/2009 09:51 PM, Matthias Clasen wrote:
This has been proposed independently, on the grounds that it is not a very good fit for the live cd audience anyway (where we probably at most need the occasional photo touch ups), and its UI is somewhat unconventional.
There is probably not going to be any alternative to this step, due to the hard size limits, but I'd like to give people a chance to comment first, anyway. So, comments ?
Can you please define the audience of the Live CD? It is the disk we usually handle to people coming at various events to advertise Fedora and honestly I don't feel comfortable spreading discs with no useful applications on them.
But we didn't remove the useful application: firefox is still in :-)
On 08/05/2009 03:37 PM, Matthias Clasen wrote:
On Wed, 2009-08-05 at 10:00 +0300, Nicu Buculei wrote:
On 08/04/2009 09:51 PM, Matthias Clasen wrote:
This has been proposed independently, on the grounds that it is not a very good fit for the live cd audience anyway (where we probably at most need the occasional photo touch ups), and its UI is somewhat unconventional.
There is probably not going to be any alternative to this step, due to the hard size limits, but I'd like to give people a chance to comment first, anyway. So, comments ?
Can you please define the audience of the Live CD? It is the disk we usually handle to people coming at various events to advertise Fedora and honestly I don't feel comfortable spreading discs with no useful applications on them.
But we didn't remove the useful application: firefox is still in :-)
So i take the target audience of this spin is people using applications in the "cloud" (web services)?
On Wed, 5 Aug 2009, Nicu Buculei wrote:
applications on them.
But we didn't remove the useful application: firefox is still in :-)
So i take the target audience of this spin is people using applications in the "cloud" (web services)?
How about anyone who uses the internet? firefox and a terminal w/ssh gives me access to:
1. my email 2. all the news in the world 3. a system for developing on 4. the necessary tools for adding new things to my system 5. all the documentation I could ever want
that sounds pretty encompassing to me.
-sv
Seth Vidal (skvidal@fedoraproject.org) said:
But we didn't remove the useful application: firefox is still in :-)
So i take the target audience of this spin is people using applications in the "cloud" (web services)?
How about anyone who uses the internet? firefox and a terminal w/ssh gives me access to:
- my email
- all the news in the world
- a system for developing on
- the necessary tools for adding new things to my system
- all the documentation I could ever want
that sounds pretty encompassing to me.
Moreover, it's a simple, installable liveCD that makes a good base for anything; after all, we probably have more developers than artists using Fedora (at the moment) but we don't put developer tools on the Desktop live CD, mainly because they are too large.
Bill
On 08/05/2009 04:53 PM, Seth Vidal wrote:
On Wed, 5 Aug 2009, Nicu Buculei wrote:
But we didn't remove the useful application: firefox is still in :-)
So i take the target audience of this spin is people using applications in the "cloud" (web services)?
How about anyone who uses the internet? firefox and a terminal w/ssh gives me access to:
- my email
- all the news in the world
- a system for developing on
- the necessary tools for adding new things to my system
- all the documentation I could ever want
that sounds pretty encompassing to me.
So the audience of the Desktop Live CD, the one featured prominently on the download page (the first item there) and described as "It's everything you need to try out Fedora" is programmers/system administrators?
I may sound repetitive but I am genuinely curious to learn what the people behind the spin see as their target.
Nicu Buculei (nicu_fedora@nicubunu.ro) said:
- my email
- all the news in the world
- a system for developing on
- the necessary tools for adding new things to my system
- all the documentation I could ever want
that sounds pretty encompassing to me.
So the audience of the Desktop Live CD, the one featured prominently on the download page (the first item there) and described as "It's everything you need to try out Fedora" is programmers/system administrators?
Yes, that's why the LiveCD has Eclipse, gcc, and lots of -devel packages for programmers, and has wireshark, puppet, cobbler, and nmap for system administrators. Wait, what?
I do not see at *all* how you make the leap from "LiveCD does not include Gimp" to "LiveCD must be for programmers and administrators."
Bill
On 08/05/2009 05:52 PM, Bill Nottingham wrote:
Nicu Buculei said:
- my email
- all the news in the world
- a system for developing on
- the necessary tools for adding new things to my system
- all the documentation I could ever want
that sounds pretty encompassing to me.
So the audience of the Desktop Live CD, the one featured prominently on the download page (the first item there) and described as "It's everything you need to try out Fedora" is programmers/system administrators?
Yes, that's why the LiveCD has Eclipse, gcc, and lots of -devel packages for programmers, and has wireshark, puppet, cobbler, and nmap for system administrators. Wait, what?
I do not see at *all* how you make the leap from "LiveCD does not include Gimp" to "LiveCD must be for programmers and administrators."
The quote is wrongly attributed, Seth made the leap by providing the list above with "system for developing on", "tools for adding things", "documentation".
On Wed, 5 Aug 2009, Nicu Buculei wrote:
Yes, that's why the LiveCD has Eclipse, gcc, and lots of -devel packages for programmers, and has wireshark, puppet, cobbler, and nmap for system administrators. Wait, what?
I do not see at *all* how you make the leap from "LiveCD does not include Gimp" to "LiveCD must be for programmers and administrators."
The quote is wrongly attributed, Seth made the leap by providing the list above with "system for developing on", "tools for adding things", "documentation".
by 'system for developing things on' I meant I can ssh out to a system.
-sv
Nicu Buculei (nicu_fedora@nicubunu.ro) said:
- my email
- all the news in the world
- a system for developing on
- the necessary tools for adding new things to my system
- all the documentation I could ever want
that sounds pretty encompassing to me.
So the audience of the Desktop Live CD, the one featured prominently on the download page (the first item there) and described as "It's everything you need to try out Fedora" is programmers/system administrators?
Yes, that's why the LiveCD has Eclipse, gcc, and lots of -devel packages for programmers, and has wireshark, puppet, cobbler, and nmap for system administrators. Wait, what?
I do not see at *all* how you make the leap from "LiveCD does not include Gimp" to "LiveCD must be for programmers and administrators."
The quote is wrongly attributed, Seth made the leap by providing the list above with "system for developing on", "tools for adding things", "documentation".
Um, no. Context included above. You somehow made the leap from 'tools for adding new things' (i.e. PackageKit) and 'documentation' to 'system administrators'. That's an impressive leap of logic.
So, for the new user, what are the most likely things they need to do on images? It's likely:
- resize - crop - rotate - frob the color balance/brightness/contrast - (maybe) redeye removal
We still include tools for that. You could argue (fairly sucessfully, I think), that gimp is actually an advanced tool for graphics professionals, not a first line tool for new users.
Bill
I see it is not possible to make perfect live cd for everyone desktop users, sys admins, developers.... Why not to separate these groups and prepare 2 versions on fc13 live cd, for example desktop and developers edition? It is stupid idea, but if U think about this....it might make sense. People who don't do programming, don't care about eclipse, apache, sqlite, php, python and other stuff. Developers and students, particularly last one would appreciate system ready to work for example with django, php on apache, mysql, eclipse, netbeans. I am not sure if we can make apache or mysql running from live cd, please frogive me my stupidity :) Tom
Date: Wed, 5 Aug 2009 10:52:47 -0400 From: notting@redhat.com To: fedora-desktop-list@redhat.com Subject: Re: Dropping Gimp from the live cd
Nicu Buculei (nicu_fedora@nicubunu.ro) said:
- my email
- all the news in the world
- a system for developing on
- the necessary tools for adding new things to my system
- all the documentation I could ever want
that sounds pretty encompassing to me.
So the audience of the Desktop Live CD, the one featured prominently on the download page (the first item there) and described as "It's everything you need to try out Fedora" is programmers/system administrators?
Yes, that's why the LiveCD has Eclipse, gcc, and lots of -devel packages for programmers, and has wireshark, puppet, cobbler, and nmap for system administrators. Wait, what?
I do not see at *all* how you make the leap from "LiveCD does not include Gimp" to "LiveCD must be for programmers and administrators."
Bill
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On 05/08/09 16:10, Bill Nottingham wrote:
Tomasz Kisielewski (tomkis@hotmail.co.uk) said:
Why not to separate these groups and prepare 2 versions on fc13 live cd
There was a developer spin. No one is currently maintaining it, so it's not produced. (Not sure what that has to do with gimp vs. no gimp)
Bill
Down the road a bit, may try to kick some life back into it. (dev-spin)
On 08/05/2009 06:08 PM, Tomasz Kisielewski wrote:
I see it is not possible to make perfect live cd for everyone desktop users, sys admins, developers.... Why not to separate these groups and prepare 2 versions on fc13 live cd, for example desktop and developers edition? It is stupid idea, but if U think about this....it might make sense. People who don't do programming, don't care about eclipse, apache, sqlite, php, python and other stuff. Developers and students, particularly last one would appreciate system ready to work for example with django, php on apache, mysql, eclipse, netbeans. I am not sure if we can make apache or mysql running from live cd, please frogive me my stupidity :)
We have such spins http://spins.fedoraproject.org/ and there are more in the development but the truth some spins are "more equal" than others: a single one is featured on the download page and recommended to the majority of our users - and this one is expected to provide the best collection of defaults and the best out of the box experience.
On Wed, 5 Aug 2009 09:53:00 -0400 (EDT), you wrote:
On Wed, 5 Aug 2009, Nicu Buculei wrote:
applications on them.
But we didn't remove the useful application: firefox is still in :-)
So i take the target audience of this spin is people using applications in the "cloud" (web services)?
How about anyone who uses the internet? firefox and a terminal w/ssh gives me access to:
- my email
- all the news in the world
- a system for developing on
- the necessary tools for adding new things to my system
- all the documentation I could ever want
that sounds pretty encompassing to me.
But are you, or for that matter anyone else on these lists who already use Fedora, the target of the live cd?
If, as mentioned in the original question regarding target audience, the point of the live cd is something to hand out to people new to Fedora to show them what Fedora/Linux offers then removing things like Gimp may be the wrong thing to do.
The Fedora download page says this about the live cd:
"This is the latest version of the Fedora Linux operating system featuring the GNOME desktop. It's everything you need to try out Fedoraand if you like it, install it right from the desktop!"
This to me means things like Gimp should stay on the live cd, because it is one of the features of Fedora/Linux that people may want to try out.
If space is really that bad then perhaps it is time to go to a DVD, but rather than use the full DVD create an artificial size limit to minimize download time.
On Wed, 5 Aug 2009, Gerald Henriksen wrote:
How about anyone who uses the internet? firefox and a terminal w/ssh gives me access to:
- my email
- all the news in the world
- a system for developing on
- the necessary tools for adding new things to my system
- all the documentation I could ever want
that sounds pretty encompassing to me.
But are you, or for that matter anyone else on these lists who already use Fedora, the target of the live cd?
If, as mentioned in the original question regarding target audience, the point of the live cd is something to hand out to people new to Fedora to show them what Fedora/Linux offers then removing things like Gimp may be the wrong thing to do.
The Fedora download page says this about the live cd:
"This is the latest version of the Fedora Linux operating system featuring the GNOME desktop. It's everything you need to try out Fedora?and if you like it, install it right from the desktop!"
This to me means things like Gimp should stay on the live cd, because it is one of the features of Fedora/Linux that people may want to try out.
If space is really that bad then perhaps it is time to go to a DVD, but rather than use the full DVD create an artificial size limit to minimize download time.
We can't go to a DVD w/o a lot of problems. CDs are much cheaper to make up and output. This discussion has been had A LOT - going to a DVD as the base live image is not going to happen yet.
-sv
On Wed, 2009-08-05 at 10:13 -0400, Seth Vidal wrote:
If space is really that bad then perhaps it is time to go to a DVD, but rather than use the full DVD create an artificial size limit to minimize download time.
We can't go to a DVD w/o a lot of problems. CDs are much cheaper to make up and output. This discussion has been had A LOT - going to a DVD as the base live image is not going to happen yet.
I am going to seriously push for targetting a 1GB usb stick for F13. Continuing to squeeze ever-shrinking amounts of useful content onto a CD is a dead-end. Localized spins and lang-packs could delay the inevitable, but rpm seems unable to give us a working lang-pack solution...
Matthias
On Wed, 5 Aug 2009, Matthias Clasen wrote:
On Wed, 2009-08-05 at 10:13 -0400, Seth Vidal wrote:
If space is really that bad then perhaps it is time to go to a DVD, but rather than use the full DVD create an artificial size limit to minimize download time.
We can't go to a DVD w/o a lot of problems. CDs are much cheaper to make up and output. This discussion has been had A LOT - going to a DVD as the base live image is not going to happen yet.
I am going to seriously push for targetting a 1GB usb stick for F13. Continuing to squeeze ever-shrinking amounts of useful content onto a CD is a dead-end. Localized spins and lang-packs could delay the inevitable, but rpm seems unable to give us a working lang-pack solution...
a 1gb usb stick seems not-unreasonable. Jumping to a DVD seems like a larger leap, to me.
-sv
On 08/05/2009 05:34 PM, Seth Vidal wrote:
On Wed, 5 Aug 2009, Matthias Clasen wrote:
I am going to seriously push for targetting a 1GB usb stick for F13. Continuing to squeeze ever-shrinking amounts of useful content onto a CD is a dead-end. Localized spins and lang-packs could delay the inevitable, but rpm seems unable to give us a working lang-pack solution...
a 1gb usb stick seems not-unreasonable. Jumping to a DVD seems like a larger leap, to me.
1GB USB sticks may hold enough content for a good user experience, but from a cost perspective DVDs, even if not full, may prove a better solution: we give away an important number of CDs at various events. Replacing those with USB sticks would cost a lot more but replacing them with DVDs will cost about the same.
So probably a good middle ground is to target the spin size-wise at 1GB sticks and distribute it on DVDs.
On Wed, Aug 5, 2009 at 4:53 PM, Nicu Buculeinicu_fedora@nicubunu.ro wrote:
On 08/05/2009 05:34 PM, Seth Vidal wrote:
On Wed, 5 Aug 2009, Matthias Clasen wrote:
I am going to seriously push for targetting a 1GB usb stick for F13. Continuing to squeeze ever-shrinking amounts of useful content onto a CD is a dead-end. Localized spins and lang-packs could delay the inevitable, but rpm seems unable to give us a working lang-pack solution...
a 1gb usb stick seems not-unreasonable. Jumping to a DVD seems like a larger leap, to me.
1GB USB sticks may hold enough content for a good user experience, but from a cost perspective DVDs, even if not full, may prove a better solution: we give away an important number of CDs at various events. Replacing those with USB sticks would cost a lot more but replacing them with DVDs will cost about the same.
So probably a good middle ground is to target the spin size-wise at 1GB sticks and distribute it on DVDs.
We have hybrid images now, so you should be able to just burn it on a DVD.
On Wed, Aug 05, 2009 at 10:12:55AM -0400, Gerald Henriksen wrote:
On Wed, 5 Aug 2009 09:53:00 -0400 (EDT), you wrote:
On Wed, 5 Aug 2009, Nicu Buculei wrote:
applications on them.
But we didn't remove the useful application: firefox is still in :-)
So i take the target audience of this spin is people using applications in the "cloud" (web services)?
How about anyone who uses the internet? firefox and a terminal w/ssh gives me access to:
- my email
- all the news in the world
- a system for developing on
- the necessary tools for adding new things to my system
- all the documentation I could ever want
that sounds pretty encompassing to me.
But are you, or for that matter anyone else on these lists who already use Fedora, the target of the live cd?
If, as mentioned in the original question regarding target audience, the point of the live cd is something to hand out to people new to Fedora to show them what Fedora/Linux offers then removing things like Gimp may be the wrong thing to do.
The Fedora download page says this about the live cd:
"This is the latest version of the Fedora Linux operating system featuring the GNOME desktop. It's everything you need to try out Fedoraand if you like it, install it right from the desktop!"
This to me means things like Gimp should stay on the live cd, because it is one of the features of Fedora/Linux that people may want to try out.
I could substitute quite a lot of random applications for "Gimp" above and that argument would be the same -- which probably means it's not a very strong one. The Desktop Live CD has sufficient applications for someone to browse the web; retrieve, read, and send email; create business documents; and view and organize media. And it has support for searching and later installing additional software.
On 08/05/2009 05:18 PM, Paul W. Frields wrote:
I could substitute quite a lot of random applications for "Gimp" above and that argument would be the same -- which probably means it's not a very strong one. The Desktop Live CD has sufficient applications for someone to browse the web; retrieve, read, and send email; create business documents; and view and organize media. And it has support for searching and later installing additional software.
I also have on my netbook something which has grow-up from a Desktop spin (with a ton of additional yummed stuff) but I see us using promoting the CD to a) users familiar with Live CDs from another distros, who expect a certain functionality OOTB and b) people new to Linux, not knowledgeable about the inner working of the distro and supposed to see Linux is better.
If those people are not the target of the spin, then perfectly fine. Only it must not be the recommended download or the disc we give away at events.
I would argue a spin intended to be a showcase must have *more* applications installed by default but I understand the space limitations (however, 1 GB USB sticks may be enough).
On Wed, Aug 5, 2009 at 2:18 PM, Paul W. Frieldsstickster@gmail.com wrote:
And it has support for searching and later installing additional software.
Except that for it's not really as good an experience as it could be, which is I think where the real bug is.
Well that and we have the problem right now of conflating "apps removed to fit in the livecd image" with "apps we don't want in the default desktop experience" too, which could be solved by a post-install hook which just runs the equivalent of "pk groupinstall gnome-desktop" or the like.
On Wed, Aug 05, 2009 at 03:51:12PM +0000, Colin Walters wrote:
On Wed, Aug 5, 2009 at 2:18 PM, Paul W. Frieldsstickster@gmail.com wrote:
And it has support for searching and later installing additional software.
Except that for it's not really as good an experience as it could be, which is I think where the real bug is.
Well that and we have the problem right now of conflating "apps removed to fit in the livecd image" with "apps we don't want in the default desktop experience" too, which could be solved by a post-install hook which just runs the equivalent of "pk groupinstall gnome-desktop" or the like.
Yeah, I wasn't arguing that what's there on the Live CD image is optimal, just that it is generally useful. The 1 GB image obviously gives some breathing room and thus flexibility to show off more applications.
On 08/05/2009 07:18 AM, Paul W. Frields wrote:
On Wed, Aug 05, 2009 at 10:12:55AM -0400, Gerald Henriksen wrote:
If, as mentioned in the original question regarding target audience, the point of the live cd is something to hand out to people new to Fedora to show them what Fedora/Linux offers then removing things like Gimp may be the wrong thing to do.
The Fedora download page says this about the live cd:
"This is the latest version of the Fedora Linux operating system featuring the GNOME desktop. It's everything you need to try out Fedora—and if you like it, install it right from the desktop!"
This to me means things like Gimp should stay on the live cd, because it is one of the features of Fedora/Linux that people may want to try out.
I could substitute quite a lot of random applications for "Gimp" above and that argument would be the same -- which probably means it's not a very strong one.
I don't think Nicu and Gerd are talking so much about random features that random users want to try... I think they're talking more about the best of breed software and "killer apps" that allow people to see the quality of programs written via a free software approach. In this vein, GIMP and firefox are both projects that are showcase pieces. They show people that free software can be quality software that is a valid alternative to proprietary offerings from Adobe and Microsoft.
The Desktop Live CD has sufficient applications for someone to browse the web; retrieve, read, and send email; create business documents; and view and organize media. And it has support for searching and later installing additional software.
This still elludes the question that's being asked. If the LiveCD's target audience is office workers wanting to do things with the livecd, then this plus Bill's note that we still have apps on the livecd to do basic photo touchups is sufficent. But for the people wanting to show others what Fedora and free software are capable of at conferences and shows, there is a desire to show people the best of breed software.
-Toshio
On Wed, Aug 5, 2009 at 6:39 PM, Toshio Kuratomia.badger@gmail.com wrote:
On 08/05/2009 07:18 AM, Paul W. Frields wrote:
On Wed, Aug 05, 2009 at 10:12:55AM -0400, Gerald Henriksen wrote:
If, as mentioned in the original question regarding target audience, the point of the live cd is something to hand out to people new to Fedora to show them what Fedora/Linux offers then removing things like Gimp may be the wrong thing to do.
The Fedora download page says this about the live cd:
"This is the latest version of the Fedora Linux operating system featuring the GNOME desktop. It's everything you need to try out Fedora—and if you like it, install it right from the desktop!"
This to me means things like Gimp should stay on the live cd, because it is one of the features of Fedora/Linux that people may want to try out.
I could substitute quite a lot of random applications for "Gimp" above and that argument would be the same -- which probably means it's not a very strong one.
I don't think Nicu and Gerd are talking so much about random features that random users want to try... I think they're talking more about the best of breed software and "killer apps" that allow people to see the quality of programs written via a free software approach. In this vein, GIMP and firefox are both projects that are showcase pieces. They show people that free software can be quality software that is a valid alternative to proprietary offerings from Adobe and Microsoft.
The Desktop Live CD has sufficient applications for someone to browse the web; retrieve, read, and send email; create business documents; and view and organize media. And it has support for searching and later installing additional software.
This still elludes the question that's being asked. If the LiveCD's target audience is office workers wanting to do things with the livecd, then this plus Bill's note that we still have apps on the livecd to do basic photo touchups is sufficent. But for the people wanting to show others what Fedora and free software are capable of at conferences and shows, there is a desire to show people the best of breed software.
Both of your points mean that we should add openoffice , but we can't because we decided to ignore newer technologies and stick with the ancient (CDs).
On 08/05/2009 09:44 AM, drago01 wrote:
On Wed, Aug 5, 2009 at 6:39 PM, Toshio Kuratomia.badger@gmail.com wrote:
On 08/05/2009 07:18 AM, Paul W. Frields wrote:
On Wed, Aug 05, 2009 at 10:12:55AM -0400, Gerald Henriksen wrote:
If, as mentioned in the original question regarding target audience, the point of the live cd is something to hand out to people new to Fedora to show them what Fedora/Linux offers then removing things like Gimp may be the wrong thing to do.
The Fedora download page says this about the live cd:
"This is the latest version of the Fedora Linux operating system featuring the GNOME desktop. It's everything you need to try out Fedora—and if you like it, install it right from the desktop!"
This to me means things like Gimp should stay on the live cd, because it is one of the features of Fedora/Linux that people may want to try out.
I could substitute quite a lot of random applications for "Gimp" above and that argument would be the same -- which probably means it's not a very strong one.
I don't think Nicu and Gerd are talking so much about random features that random users want to try... I think they're talking more about the best of breed software and "killer apps" that allow people to see the quality of programs written via a free software approach. In this vein, GIMP and firefox are both projects that are showcase pieces. They show people that free software can be quality software that is a valid alternative to proprietary offerings from Adobe and Microsoft.
The Desktop Live CD has sufficient applications for someone to browse the web; retrieve, read, and send email; create business documents; and view and organize media. And it has support for searching and later installing additional software.
This still elludes the question that's being asked. If the LiveCD's target audience is office workers wanting to do things with the livecd, then this plus Bill's note that we still have apps on the livecd to do basic photo touchups is sufficent. But for the people wanting to show others what Fedora and free software are capable of at conferences and shows, there is a desire to show people the best of breed software.
Both of your points mean that we should add openoffice , but we can't because we decided to ignore newer technologies and stick with the ancient (CDs).
The other office suites have been quality products in my experience as well. OTOH, perhaps the ideal demonstration of what Fedora and Free software are would have openoffice on it and not be targeted at a CD. But that means that we start to move towards people at trade shows getting a different spin than the default that people download from the internet. Perhaps that's inevitable?
-Toshio
On Wed, 2009-08-05 at 09:39 -0700, Toshio Kuratomi wrote:
This still elludes the question that's being asked. If the LiveCD's target audience is office workers wanting to do things with the livecd, then this plus Bill's note that we still have apps on the livecd to do basic photo touchups is sufficent. But for the people wanting to show others what Fedora and free software are capable of at conferences and shows, there is a desire to show people the best of breed software.
The problem is that with a CD sized target, there just isn't enough space to both A) have a generally useful system for doing web/email/etc.. and B) have room to showcase grate software that is generally only available on Linux (Firefox isn't a great example as you can run that on MSFT and OSX just fine, why go to the effort of running Fedora for it?).
On 08/05/2009 09:50 AM, Jesse Keating wrote:
On Wed, 2009-08-05 at 09:39 -0700, Toshio Kuratomi wrote:
This still elludes the question that's being asked. If the LiveCD's target audience is office workers wanting to do things with the livecd, then this plus Bill's note that we still have apps on the livecd to do basic photo touchups is sufficent. But for the people wanting to show others what Fedora and free software are capable of at conferences and shows, there is a desire to show people the best of breed software.
The problem is that with a CD sized target, there just isn't enough space to both A) have a generally useful system for doing web/email/etc.. and B) have room to showcase grate software that is generally only available on Linux (Firefox isn't a great example as you can run that on MSFT and OSX just fine, why go to the effort of running Fedora for it?).
That's the dichotomy I set up, yes. There's two separate audiences -- those who want to do useful out-of-the-box work with the livecd and then add features to the install incrementally via packagekit and those who want to see what all the fuss is about by checking out the apps on the livecd and then downloading more things with packagekit so they have an install that meets all their needs. As the amount of space we have becomes more scarce, having the two audiences be satisfied by the same spin is becoming harder.
-Toshio
Máirín Duffy (duffy@fedoraproject.org) said:
But for the people wanting to show others what Fedora and free software are capable of at conferences and shows, there is a desire to show people the best of breed software.
Maybe there should be a demo-ware spin?
Some best-of-breed open source stuff like puppet, or apache, or <insert other examples here> doesn't really lend itself to a demo-ware spin. Which doesn't mean you shouldn't/couldn't have one, but it's not going to be a full best-of-breed of what Fedora can do.
Bill
On Wed, 2009-08-05 at 13:14 -0400, Bill Nottingham wrote:
Máirín Duffy (duffy@fedoraproject.org) said:
But for the people wanting to show others what Fedora and free software are capable of at conferences and shows, there is a desire to show people the best of breed software.
Maybe there should be a demo-ware spin?
Some best-of-breed open source stuff like puppet, or apache, or <insert other examples here> doesn't really lend itself to a demo-ware spin. Which doesn't mean you shouldn't/couldn't have one, but it's not going to be a full best-of-breed of what Fedora can do.
I guess it could be tailored to the conference or to the general interests our booth workers have experienced in the booth. I have noticed from my 'booth babe' experiences that veyr visual demonstrations, though, are very quick & effective and go a long way towards making a good impression. Giving a demo of something like puppet I think would require a level of expertise/coordination/advance setup on the part of the booth worker that would probably not be worth the return.
The point wouldn't be to show the full best-of-breed what Fedora can do, just a sampling based on what's easily demo-able by our booth workers and what makes a good impression easily and quickly.
I guess this could be achieved in other ways though. Like when we were at the FUDcon Berlin booth, Nicu and I created a graphic and made a video showing all the steps of the graphic's creation so it could be played back as a demonstration of what Fedora can do. Along those lines, we could have a set of videos that could be played to give the demos, although it would be cool to also have the apps used in the demos available for people visiting the booth to play with. ('you saw what we did, now it's your turn to try' kind of thing)
~m
On 08/05/2009 10:29 AM, Máirín Duffy wrote:
I guess it could be tailored to the conference or to the general interests our booth workers have experienced in the booth. I have noticed from my 'booth babe' experiences that veyr visual demonstrations, though, are very quick & effective and go a long way towards making a good impression. Giving a demo of something like puppet I think would require a level of expertise/coordination/advance setup on the part of the booth worker that would probably not be worth the return.
The point wouldn't be to show the full best-of-breed what Fedora can do, just a sampling based on what's easily demo-able by our booth workers and what makes a good impression easily and quickly.
+1
I guess this could be achieved in other ways though. Like when we were at the FUDcon Berlin booth, Nicu and I created a graphic and made a video showing all the steps of the graphic's creation so it could be played back as a demonstration of what Fedora can do. Along those lines, we could have a set of videos that could be played to give the demos, although it would be cool to also have the apps used in the demos available for people visiting the booth to play with. ('you saw what we did, now it's your turn to try' kind of thing)
oooh... Excellent! I think a good demo spin would incorporate some of this kind of media as well. Then when someone gets their shiny Fedora USB key home and sits down to do some work on their computer they can fire up GIMP and replay the video as a step by step tutorial. Having both the video and the apps is greater than having each by themselves.
-Toshio
Toshio Kuratomi (a.badger@gmail.com) said:
I guess this could be achieved in other ways though. Like when we were at the FUDcon Berlin booth, Nicu and I created a graphic and made a video showing all the steps of the graphic's creation so it could be played back as a demonstration of what Fedora can do. Along those lines, we could have a set of videos that could be played to give the demos, although it would be cool to also have the apps used in the demos available for people visiting the booth to play with. ('you saw what we did, now it's your turn to try' kind of thing)
oooh... Excellent! I think a good demo spin would incorporate some of this kind of media as well. Then when someone gets their shiny Fedora USB key home and sits down to do some work on their computer they can fire up GIMP and replay the video as a step by step tutorial. Having both the video and the apps is greater than having each by themselves.
Yes, but when you've gotten to this point, you've long since left behind any sort of single-CD spin, as you'll need both the tools and the video, neither of which are small. (Given the need to have some play space on your USB stick for the overlay, I wonder if even 1GB is enough.)
Bill
On Wed, 2009-08-05 at 13:44 -0400, Bill Nottingham wrote:
oooh... Excellent! I think a good demo spin would incorporate some of this kind of media as well. Then when someone gets their shiny Fedora USB key home and sits down to do some work on their computer they can fire up GIMP and replay the video as a step by step tutorial. Having both the video and the apps is greater than having each by themselves.
Yes, but when you've gotten to this point, you've long since left behind any sort of single-CD spin, as you'll need both the tools and the video, neither of which are small. (Given the need to have some play space on your USB stick for the overlay, I wonder if even 1GB is enough.)
Hmm. Well, I think it depends.
If you *do* have network access (which, as previously mentioned, tends to be spotty at conferences) the videos could be hosted somewhere at fpo a a video podcast feed, and that feed could be automagically set in totem and maybe as a firefox bookmarklet. Then visitors to the booth could pick up a copy of this demo cd and still be able to access the videos when they get home.
The complication it would introduce is that the ambassadors or whomever is giving the demo would need to download the media set separately on a different USB key ahead of time and make sure they plug it in while giving the video demos at the booth.
~m
2009/8/5 Máirín Duffy duffy@fedoraproject.org:
I guess this could be achieved in other ways though. Like when we were at the FUDcon Berlin booth, Nicu and I created a graphic and made a video showing all the steps of the graphic's creation so it could be played back as a demonstration of what Fedora can do. Along those lines, we could have a set of videos that could be played to give the demos, although it would be cool to also have the apps used in the demos available for people visiting the booth to play with. ('you saw what we did, now it's your turn to try' kind of thing)
Really nice, so what about this:
* Make the desktop spin a GNOME showcase. A very good general purpose desktop without the heavy productivity apps if those would take away from an awesome desktop because of the space constraint, but otherwise a really slick and immediately useful desktop for the average user.
* Make the default Firefox homepage (and maybe also an icon on the desktop to open it called "Discover Fedora") be an URL to a fedora hosted webpage with all those wonderful videos (theora encoded!), nice explanations for new users etc. *And* a link on the side "Install this software" which would fire up PackageKit to install, say, GIMP and Inkscape as showcased on the video.
- This webpage could then go on and contain a paragraph with developer tools and the same kind of link. Idem for office apps, scientific/math tools, server foo, virtualization, etc.
Btw, this would work both on the installed system as well as on the live system as long as the computer has enough RAM to install the packages.
Rui
On Wed, Aug 05, 2009 at 01:14:49PM -0400, Bill Nottingham wrote:
Máirín Duffy (duffy@fedoraproject.org) said:
But for the people wanting to show others what Fedora and free software are capable of at conferences and shows, there is a desire to show people the best of breed software.
Maybe there should be a demo-ware spin?
Some best-of-breed open source stuff like puppet, or apache, or <insert other examples here> doesn't really lend itself to a demo-ware spin. Which doesn't mean you shouldn't/couldn't have one, but it's not going to be a full best-of-breed of what Fedora can do.
Is there any appeal in doing something more useful with start.fedoraproject.org, the default browser home page? Such as putting a few best of breed apps on the page, with links to the latest builds that PK can install at a click?
Paul W. Frields (stickster@gmail.com) said:
Some best-of-breed open source stuff like puppet, or apache, or <insert other examples here> doesn't really lend itself to a demo-ware spin. Which doesn't mean you shouldn't/couldn't have one, but it's not going to be a full best-of-breed of what Fedora can do.
Is there any appeal in doing something more useful with start.fedoraproject.org, the default browser home page? Such as putting a few best of breed apps on the page, with links to the latest builds that PK can install at a click?
See bug 315171; there's been ideas floated in this space for a while, but there just haven't been people with time to take the ball and run with it.
If there are people on this thread who want to tackle these sorts of thing and have the time to do it (I think we've sort of conclusively proven that the base development & packaging people don't, unfortunately), I'm all for it.
Bill
Toshio Kuratomi, Wed, 05 Aug 2009 09:39:01 -0700:
I don't think Nicu and Gerd are talking so much about random features that random users want to try... I think they're talking more about the best of breed software and "killer apps" that allow people to see the quality of programs written via a free software approach. In this vein, GIMP and firefox are both projects that are showcase pieces. They show people that free software can be quality software that is a valid alternative to proprietary offerings from Adobe and Microsoft.
Well, if we want to follow this logic, than we should throw a lot of stuff before removing OpenOffice.org from it, right?
Matěj
On 08/06/2009 12:49 PM, Matej Cepl wrote:
Toshio Kuratomi, Wed, 05 Aug 2009 09:39:01 -0700:
I don't think Nicu and Gerd are talking so much about random features that random users want to try... I think they're talking more about the best of breed software and "killer apps" that allow people to see the quality of programs written via a free software approach. In this vein, GIMP and firefox are both projects that are showcase pieces. They show people that free software can be quality software that is a valid alternative to proprietary offerings from Adobe and Microsoft.
Well, if we want to follow this logic, than we should throw a lot of stuff before removing OpenOffice.org from it, right?
OpenOffice.org is not removed since due to its size it was never part of the Live CD :p
I had to explain more than once to various people who tried only the Live CD about the size constraints and that OOo is indeed part of our distro and is available on media, just not on this particular format/spin.
On Thu, 2009-08-06 at 09:49 +0000, Matej Cepl wrote:
Toshio Kuratomi, Wed, 05 Aug 2009 09:39:01 -0700:
I don't think Nicu and Gerd are talking so much about random features that random users want to try... I think they're talking more about the best of breed software and "killer apps" that allow people to see the quality of programs written via a free software approach. In this vein, GIMP and firefox are both projects that are showcase pieces. They show people that free software can be quality software that is a valid alternative to proprietary offerings from Adobe and Microsoft.
Well, if we want to follow this logic, than we should throw a lot of stuff before removing OpenOffice.org from it, right?
Replacing abiword with the entire openoffice suite blows the iso size up to 825M.
Replacing abiword with just oowriter still blows the iso size up to 820M.
This is without any openoffice lang packs.
Matthias Clasen, Thu, 06 Aug 2009 08:47:38 -0400:
Well, if we want to follow this logic, than we should throw a lot of stuff before removing OpenOffice.org from it, right?
Replacing abiword with the entire openoffice suite blows the iso size up to 825M.
Replacing abiword with just oowriter still blows the iso size up to 820M.
This is without any openoffice lang packs.
I know and I am not fighting for OOo inclusion, just showing that we don't follow "make the most useful and shiny apps available" logic already.
Matěj
On 08/06/2009 05:54 PM, Matej Cepl wrote:
I know and I am not fighting for OOo inclusion, just showing that we don't follow "make the most useful and shiny apps available" logic already.
OOo is so big so it is an exception, is it or *several* other applications, making the choice easier.
...and it can be argued OOo is not "cool", is "useful", you do with it mostly boring stuff. It is also not integrated well in the desktop and so on.
On 08/06/2009 08:26 AM, Nicu Buculei wrote:
On 08/06/2009 05:54 PM, Matej Cepl wrote:
I know and I am not fighting for OOo inclusion, just showing that we don't follow "make the most useful and shiny apps available" logic already.
OOo is so big so it is an exception, is it or *several* other applications, making the choice easier.
...and it can be argued OOo is not "cool", is "useful", you do with it mostly boring stuff. It is also not integrated well in the desktop and so on.
And two other arguments, one mine, the other from Jesse:
* The two main use OOo apps have replacements that are good and very good (abiword, gnumeric). * OOo, like firefox, is equally promoted on windows. So it's not a Linux-specific showcase item.
But I think this line of discussion isn't as productive as discussion about splitting the two targets of the current desktop spin and what the requirements might be for having a successful demo-spin. Is openoffice a requirement for that audience?
-Toshio
Toshio Kuratomi (a.badger@gmail.com) said:
But I think this line of discussion isn't as productive as discussion about splitting the two targets of the current desktop spin and what the requirements might be for having a successful demo-spin. Is openoffice a requirement for that audience?
Well, I think this thread has conflated a few issues by now:
- should the desktop spin be limited to a single CD in size? - should the desktop spin have best of breed apps for any demo-able use cases? - should we highlight these on fp.o, instead of doing a spin?
There's probably some others that I've missed. But until we answer the first, we can't really logically work on the second, I think.
Bill
On 08/06/2009 09:27 AM, Bill Nottingham wrote:
Toshio Kuratomi (a.badger@gmail.com) said:
But I think this line of discussion isn't as productive as discussion about splitting the two targets of the current desktop spin and what the requirements might be for having a successful demo-spin. Is openoffice a requirement for that audience?
Well, I think this thread has conflated a few issues by now:
- should the desktop spin be limited to a single CD in size?
- should the desktop spin have best of breed apps for any demo-able use cases?
- should we highlight these on fp.o, instead of doing a spin?
There's probably some others that I've missed. But until we answer the first, we can't really logically work on the second, I think.
The answer to the first is another set of questions:
- Do we still have areas of the world where a livecd will work in a computer but either burning or booting from livedvds or liveusb is infeasible? - Do we still want the desktop spin to be the default download option on get-fedora?
As long as those two hold true, the desktop spin must be limited to a single CD in size. Note that the first of those questions needs to be addressed to a wider audience than the desktop team but the second is within the desktop team's control.
-Toshio
On Thu, 06 Aug 2009 09:36:49 -0700, you wrote:
On 08/06/2009 09:27 AM, Bill Nottingham wrote:
Well, I think this thread has conflated a few issues by now:
- should the desktop spin be limited to a single CD in size?
- should the desktop spin have best of breed apps for any demo-able use cases?
- should we highlight these on fp.o, instead of doing a spin?
There's probably some others that I've missed. But until we answer the first, we can't really logically work on the second, I think.
The answer to the first is another set of questions:
- Do we still have areas of the world where a livecd will work in a
computer but either burning or booting from livedvds or liveusb is infeasible?
Does the move from i586 to i686 eliminate the cd only machines anyway?
On Thu, Aug 6, 2009 at 8:00 PM, Gerald Henriksenghenriks@gmail.com wrote:
On Thu, 06 Aug 2009 09:36:49 -0700, you wrote:
On 08/06/2009 09:27 AM, Bill Nottingham wrote:
Well, I think this thread has conflated a few issues by now:
- should the desktop spin be limited to a single CD in size?
- should the desktop spin have best of breed apps for any demo-able
use cases?
- should we highlight these on fp.o, instead of doing a spin?
There's probably some others that I've missed. But until we answer the first, we can't really logically work on the second, I think.
The answer to the first is another set of questions:
- Do we still have areas of the world where a livecd will work in a
computer but either burning or booting from livedvds or liveusb is infeasible?
Does the move from i586 to i686 eliminate the cd only machines anyway?
No, i686 goes back to the Pentium Pro where there where no DVD readers at all.
thats right! Live spin should not more than cd size. Most ppl in my country do not have enough bandwidth to download a dvd. Thats equall true for most developing countres? **So, dont make it hard for us to get fedora** thoug we can collect the dvd from local vendor but its month after a release!! Do u expect at 17KB/s i will be able to download a dvd??
On 8/6/09, Toshio Kuratomi a.badger@gmail.com wrote:
On 08/06/2009 09:27 AM, Bill Nottingham wrote:
Toshio Kuratomi (a.badger@gmail.com) said:
But I think this line of discussion isn't as productive as discussion about splitting the two targets of the current desktop spin and what the requirements might be for having a successful demo-spin. Is openoffice a requirement for that audience?
Well, I think this thread has conflated a few issues by now:
- should the desktop spin be limited to a single CD in size?
- should the desktop spin have best of breed apps for any demo-able use cases?
- should we highlight these on fp.o, instead of doing a spin?
There's probably some others that I've missed. But until we answer the first, we can't really logically work on the second, I think.
The answer to the first is another set of questions:
- Do we still have areas of the world where a livecd will work in a
computer but either burning or booting from livedvds or liveusb is infeasible?
- Do we still want the desktop spin to be the default download option on
get-fedora?
As long as those two hold true, the desktop spin must be limited to a single CD in size. Note that the first of those questions needs to be addressed to a wider audience than the desktop team but the second is within the desktop team's control.
-Toshio
thats right! Live spin should not more than cd size. Most ppl in my country do not have enough bandwidth to download a dvd. Thats equall true for most developing countres? **So, dont make it hard for us to get fedora** thoug we can collect the dvd from local vendor but its month after a release!! Do u expect at 17KB/s i will be able to download a dvd??
On 8/6/09, Toshio Kuratomi a.badger@gmail.com wrote:
On 08/06/2009 09:27 AM, Bill Nottingham wrote:
Toshio Kuratomi (a.badger@gmail.com) said:
But I think this line of discussion isn't as productive as discussion about splitting the two targets of the current desktop spin and what the requirements might be for having a successful demo-spin. Is openoffice a requirement for that audience?
Well, I think this thread has conflated a few issues by now:
- should the desktop spin be limited to a single CD in size?
- should the desktop spin have best of breed apps for any demo-able use cases?
- should we highlight these on fp.o, instead of doing a spin?
There's probably some others that I've missed. But until we answer the first, we can't really logically work on the second, I think.
The answer to the first is another set of questions:
- Do we still have areas of the world where a livecd will work in a
computer but either burning or booting from livedvds or liveusb is infeasible?
- Do we still want the desktop spin to be the default download option on
get-fedora?
As long as those two hold true, the desktop spin must be limited to a single CD in size. Note that the first of those questions needs to be addressed to a wider audience than the desktop team but the second is within the desktop team's control.
-Toshio
On Thu, Aug 6, 2009 at 6:27 PM, Bill Nottinghamnotting@redhat.com wrote:
Toshio Kuratomi (a.badger@gmail.com) said:
But I think this line of discussion isn't as productive as discussion about splitting the two targets of the current desktop spin and what the requirements might be for having a successful demo-spin. Is openoffice a requirement for that audience?
Well, I think this thread has conflated a few issues by now:
- should the desktop spin be limited to a single CD in size?
No.
On Thu, Aug 6, 2009 at 6:19 PM, Toshio Kuratomia.badger@gmail.com wrote:
On 08/06/2009 08:26 AM, Nicu Buculei wrote:
On 08/06/2009 05:54 PM, Matej Cepl wrote:
I know and I am not fighting for OOo inclusion, just showing that we don't follow "make the most useful and shiny apps available" logic already.
OOo is so big so it is an exception, is it or *several* other applications, making the choice easier.
...and it can be argued OOo is not "cool", is "useful", you do with it mostly boring stuff. It is also not integrated well in the desktop and so on.
And two other arguments, one mine, the other from Jesse:
- The two main use OOo apps have replacements that are good and very
good (abiword, gnumeric).
- OOo, like firefox, is equally promoted on windows. So it's not a
Linux-specific showcase item.
Well list the linux specific apps than ... most free software tends to be multiplatform because if there is interest in porting them they can easily be ported.
On Thu, 2009-08-06 at 19:16 +0200, drago01 wrote:
Well list the linux specific apps than ... most free software tends to be multiplatform because if there is interest in porting them they can easily be ported.
Right, this is why using "hey look we have this cool app" as a reason to use Fedora is a poor argument, since there is hardly a case where we're the only platform (Linux), let alone the only distro to have such an app.
On Thu, 2009-08-06 at 19:16 +0200, drago01 wrote:
On Thu, Aug 6, 2009 at 6:19 PM, Toshio Kuratomia.badger@gmail.com wrote:
On 08/06/2009 08:26 AM, Nicu Buculei wrote:
On 08/06/2009 05:54 PM, Matej Cepl wrote:
I know and I am not fighting for OOo inclusion, just showing that we don't follow "make the most useful and shiny apps available" logic already.
OOo is so big so it is an exception, is it or *several* other applications, making the choice easier.
...and it can be argued OOo is not "cool", is "useful", you do with it mostly boring stuff. It is also not integrated well in the desktop and so on.
And two other arguments, one mine, the other from Jesse:
- The two main use OOo apps have replacements that are good and very
good (abiword, gnumeric).
- OOo, like firefox, is equally promoted on windows. So it's not a
Linux-specific showcase item.
Well list the linux specific apps than ... most free software tends to be multiplatform because if there is interest in porting them they can easily be ported.
Well, that certainly is true, but there is a difference between applications having linux as secondary platform (most non-native-gtk/qt stuff if we talk about desktop apps) and applications having it as primary platform (most native-gtk/gtk stuff). Both OOo and FF are mainstream on Windows, linux is just another market for them, gimp and others are primary gnu or linux applications, but developed in principle to be multiplatform, so they work elsewhere as well (or can be easily ported), although gimp is gaining a significant share on windows as well ;-)
And yeah, as a member of the design-team, I am sorta sad gimp gets removed, but it's probably one of the last (if not last) of really powerful applications (as opposed to rather simplistic apps targeted at general desktop audience) that has more specific target audience and is still on the Desktop Spin. Perhaps it would be a good time to rethink the purpose of Desktop Spin and clearly state which kinds of apps are desirable to have and which are not.
Martin
On Thu, 2009-08-06 at 18:26 +0300, Nicu Buculei wrote:
On 08/06/2009 05:54 PM, Matej Cepl wrote:
I know and I am not fighting for OOo inclusion, just showing that we don't follow "make the most useful and shiny apps available" logic already.
OOo is so big so it is an exception, is it or *several* other applications, making the choice easier.
...and it can be argued OOo is not "cool", is "useful", you do with it mostly boring stuff. It is also not integrated well in the desktop and so on.
That 'not cool' argument would apply equally well to abiword, no ? What kind of desktop integration are you missing ?
I certainly think that we should include OpenOffice once we drop size constraints that make it impossible. It does not make much sense to have one office app on the live cd and another one on other installs. That is just confusing.
If we are serious about OpenOffice being the preferred office suite for Fedora, we should either provide it out of the box, or make it very easy to get it after doing an install.
Matthias
On 08/06/2009 09:29 PM, Matthias Clasen wrote:
On Thu, 2009-08-06 at 18:26 +0300, Nicu Buculei wrote:
On 08/06/2009 05:54 PM, Matej Cepl wrote:
I know and I am not fighting for OOo inclusion, just showing that we don't follow "make the most useful and shiny apps available" logic already.
OOo is so big so it is an exception, is it or *several* other applications, making the choice easier.
...and it can be argued OOo is not "cool", is "useful", you do with it mostly boring stuff. It is also not integrated well in the desktop and so on.
That 'not cool' argument would apply equally well to abiword, no ?
But Abiword is very small in comparison and it looks more like a GNOME application (disclaimer: I use OOo for its features)
What kind of desktop integration are you missing ?
Things like the Print dialog.
I certainly think that we should include OpenOffice once we drop size constraints that make it impossible. It does not make much sense to have one office app on the live cd and another one on other installs. That is just confusing.
+1
If we are serious about OpenOffice being the preferred office suite for Fedora, we should either provide it out of the box, or make it very easy to get it after doing an install.
Considering its size, for those needing OOo the install DVD is a better options (and after install the updates will go smoothly with deltarpms).
Hi If the target audience of live cd is "experienced" Linux user, doesn't have to be fedora user, than give up gimp easily. Such people usually configure their "perfect system" by themselves. If the target is newbe, migrated from windows, looking for something new, or only person who has heard something about Linux and wants to try then we have to place as many "cool" features as possible, gimp is good image editor. What about amsn, kopete or other client capable to talk to windows messanger? People on MS system use this for communication. Tom
From: ghenriks@gmail.com To: fedora-desktop-list@redhat.com Date: Wed, 5 Aug 2009 10:12:55 -0400 Subject: Re: Dropping Gimp from the live cd
On Wed, 5 Aug 2009 09:53:00 -0400 (EDT), you wrote:
On Wed, 5 Aug 2009, Nicu Buculei wrote:
applications on them.
But we didn't remove the useful application: firefox is still in :-)
So i take the target audience of this spin is people using applications in the "cloud" (web services)?
How about anyone who uses the internet? firefox and a terminal w/ssh gives me access to:
- my email
- all the news in the world
- a system for developing on
- the necessary tools for adding new things to my system
- all the documentation I could ever want
that sounds pretty encompassing to me.
But are you, or for that matter anyone else on these lists who already use Fedora, the target of the live cd?
If, as mentioned in the original question regarding target audience, the point of the live cd is something to hand out to people new to Fedora to show them what Fedora/Linux offers then removing things like Gimp may be the wrong thing to do.
The Fedora download page says this about the live cd:
"This is the latest version of the Fedora Linux operating system featuring the GNOME desktop. It's everything you need to try out Fedora—and if you like it, install it right from the desktop!"
This to me means things like Gimp should stay on the live cd, because it is one of the features of Fedora/Linux that people may want to try out.
If space is really that bad then perhaps it is time to go to a DVD, but rather than use the full DVD create an artificial size limit to minimize download time.
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Tomasz Kisielewski (tomkis@hotmail.co.uk) said:
If the target audience of live cd is "experienced" Linux user, doesn't have to be fedora user, than give up gimp easily. Such people usually configure their "perfect system" by themselves. If the target is newbe, migrated from windows, looking for something new, or only person who has heard something about Linux and wants to try then we have to place as many "cool" features as possible, gimp is good image editor. What about amsn, kopete or other client capable to talk to windows messanger?
We already ship a IM client on the live CD.
Bill
On Wed, 2009-08-05 at 16:50 +0300, Nicu Buculei wrote:
On 08/05/2009 03:37 PM, Matthias Clasen wrote:
On Wed, 2009-08-05 at 10:00 +0300, Nicu Buculei wrote:
On 08/04/2009 09:51 PM, Matthias Clasen wrote:
This has been proposed independently, on the grounds that it is not a very good fit for the live cd audience anyway (where we probably at most need the occasional photo touch ups), and its UI is somewhat unconventional.
There is probably not going to be any alternative to this step, due to the hard size limits, but I'd like to give people a chance to comment first, anyway. So, comments ?
Can you please define the audience of the Live CD? It is the disk we usually handle to people coming at various events to advertise Fedora and honestly I don't feel comfortable spreading discs with no useful applications on them.
But we didn't remove the useful application: firefox is still in :-)
So i take the target audience of this spin is people using applications in the "cloud" (web services)?
No, I was making a joke.
But I do believe that a browser is the most important application to include for any audience.
On Tue, 2009-08-04 at 14:51 -0400, Matthias Clasen wrote:
The live cd has a very hard time shrinking below 700M, and it is not going to get better when it switches to use a dracut initrd.
One way to make sufficient room on the live cd would be to drop Gimp.
This has been proposed independently, on the grounds that it is not a very good fit for the live cd audience anyway (where we probably at most need the occasional photo touch ups), and its UI is somewhat unconventional.
There is probably not going to be any alternative to this step, due to the hard size limits, but I'd like to give people a chance to comment first, anyway. So, comments ?
Would dropping just the gimp user docs, or the extra data be enough?
On Thu, 2009-08-06 at 11:26 +0100, Bastien Nocera wrote:
On Tue, 2009-08-04 at 14:51 -0400, Matthias Clasen wrote:
The live cd has a very hard time shrinking below 700M, and it is not going to get better when it switches to use a dracut initrd.
One way to make sufficient room on the live cd would be to drop Gimp.
This has been proposed independently, on the grounds that it is not a very good fit for the live cd audience anyway (where we probably at most need the occasional photo touch ups), and its UI is somewhat unconventional.
There is probably not going to be any alternative to this step, due to the hard size limits, but I'd like to give people a chance to comment first, anyway. So, comments ?
Would dropping just the gimp user docs, or the extra data be enough?
Those were already gone. And it was not enough.
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