Hello Websites and Desktop lists.
I think it's time we drop our usage of start.fedoraproject.org as the default start page for Firefox in Fedora and simply use the firefox about:home page as the default starting page for the browser.
What do you think?
Generally, the start page was designed to somehow be a gateway for Fedora to encourage people to participate and contribute. But I'm not sure if it really works.
Reasons why I think it's time for this page to go:
* We got numerous of complaints about inappropriate planet fedora posts that appeared there. Having contributor-generated content in the start page seems like a bad idea in hindsight. Most of the Planet posts are also not very relevant (or inviting) for people who are not already part of the community.
* The design is a bit too simplistic, yet since the current design was introduced nobody had the time/energy/will to think of / implement anything better. To be frank, it's kinda ugly - and I think I'm allowed to say this because I'm the one who implemented (and if I recall correctly, also "designed" it).
* Our "main goal" used to be "gaining contributors" and getting people involved with the project. While this goal still remains intact, it's no longer our main driving force (at least for the Wrokstation product), but rather "build the best OS for software developers" - as such it would be better if the start page would be actually *usable* for our target audience. Gaining contributors remains a goal, but it shouldn't affect our UI/UX decisions.
fwiw it's not the first time I've suggested the removal of this page.
I want input on this from both Desktop and Websites before I file a bug for the Firefox package to drop this default.
Of course we will have to have start.fedoraproject.org online still for at least another cycle, because people might still have it as their homepage (I've seen a few, they don't really look at the page and just go to the address bar directly).
We could, for example, replace it with some sort of "contributor hub" page with resources, workflows and practical guides on how to get involved for new contributors (ie. reuse the start.fpo name, *not* use a contributor hub as a homepage) but I don't know if anyone has the time, energy and will to implement and maintain such thing.
On Sun, 2014-08-24 at 22:53 +0300, Elad Alfassa wrote:
Hello Websites and Desktop lists.
I think it's time we drop our usage of start.fedoraproject.org as the default start page for Firefox in Fedora and simply use the firefox about:home page as the default starting page for the browser.
What do you think?
Absolutely. start.fedoraproject.org is nice for Fedora developers, but not for users or other developers.
If you did use the default about:home this would also help support your upstream partner Mozilla who gains some revenue from search. As far as I know Fedora does not generate any revenue for upstream while distros like Ubuntu does.
Obviously that revenue is really important and helps Mozilla cover its operating costs.
On Sun, Aug 24, 2014 at 12:53 PM, Elad Alfassa elad@fedoraproject.org wrote:
Hello Websites and Desktop lists.
I think it's time we drop our usage of start.fedoraproject.org as the default start page for Firefox in Fedora and simply use the firefox about:home page as the default starting page for the browser.
What do you think?
Generally, the start page was designed to somehow be a gateway for Fedora to encourage people to participate and contribute. But I'm not sure if it really works.
Reasons why I think it's time for this page to go:
- We got numerous of complaints about inappropriate planet fedora
posts that appeared there. Having contributor-generated content in the start page seems like a bad idea in hindsight. Most of the Planet posts are also not very relevant (or inviting) for people who are not already part of the community.
- The design is a bit too simplistic, yet since the current design
was introduced nobody had the time/energy/will to think of / implement anything better. To be frank, it's kinda ugly - and I think I'm allowed to say this because I'm the one who implemented (and if I recall correctly, also "designed" it).
- Our "main goal" used to be "gaining contributors" and getting
people involved with the project. While this goal still remains intact, it's no longer our main driving force (at least for the Wrokstation product), but rather "build the best OS for software developers" - as such it would be better if the start page would be actually *usable* for our target audience. Gaining contributors remains a goal, but it shouldn't affect our UI/UX decisions.
fwiw it's not the first time I've suggested the removal of this page.
I want input on this from both Desktop and Websites before I file a bug for the Firefox package to drop this default.
Of course we will have to have start.fedoraproject.org online still for at least another cycle, because people might still have it as their homepage (I've seen a few, they don't really look at the page and just go to the address bar directly).
We could, for example, replace it with some sort of "contributor hub" page with resources, workflows and practical guides on how to get involved for new contributors (ie. reuse the start.fpo name, *not* use a contributor hub as a homepage) but I don't know if anyone has the time, energy and will to implement and maintain such thing. --
-Elad Alfassa.
desktop mailing list desktop@lists.fedoraproject.org https://admin.fedoraproject.org/mailman/listinfo/desktop
On Mon, Aug 25, 2014 at 12:01 AM, Benjamin Kerensa bkerensa@gmail.com wrote:
If you did use the default about:home this would also help support your upstream partner Mozilla who gains some revenue from search. As far as I know Fedora does not generate any revenue for upstream while distros like Ubuntu does.
Obviously that revenue is really important and helps Mozilla cover its operating costs.
Sure, and I'm sure all of us in Fedora value Mozilla's contribution to our ecosystem and the open web, but having about:home by default might be problematic as it conflicts with our values of FOSS - it basically promotes and endorses Google, a thing that is morally questionable and that I'm not even sure if we are legally allowed to do.
On Sun, Aug 24, 2014 at 11:04 PM, Elad Alfassa elad@fedoraproject.org wrote:
On Mon, Aug 25, 2014 at 12:01 AM, Benjamin Kerensa bkerensa@gmail.com wrote:
If you did use the default about:home this would also help support your upstream partner Mozilla who gains some revenue from search. As far as I know Fedora does not generate any revenue for upstream while distros like Ubuntu does.
Obviously that revenue is really important and helps Mozilla cover its operating costs.
Sure, and I'm sure all of us in Fedora value Mozilla's contribution to our ecosystem and the open web, but having about:home by default might be problematic as it conflicts with our values of FOSS - it basically promotes and endorses Google, a thing that is morally questionable and that I'm not even sure if we are legally allowed to do.
We already have a Google search option in firefox. And have access to Google services in different places / applications. So no there is no legal issue here.
On Sun, Aug 24, 2014 at 22:53:01 +0300, Elad Alfassa elad@fedoraproject.org wrote:
Hello Websites and Desktop lists.
I think it's time we drop our usage of start.fedoraproject.org as the default start page for Firefox in Fedora and simply use the firefox about:home page as the default starting page for the browser.
What do you think?
I'd rather see about:blank used.
----- Original Message -----
On Sun, Aug 24, 2014 at 22:53:01 +0300, Elad Alfassa elad@fedoraproject.org wrote:
Hello Websites and Desktop lists.
I think it's time we drop our usage of start.fedoraproject.org as the default start page for Firefox in Fedora and simply use the firefox about:home page as the default starting page for the browser.
What do you think?
I'd rather see about:blank used.
about:blank looks like "hey, my internet is broken!". Maybe we can do our own version of about:home? As it's what many users expect to see - search field. With links to the user related content.
Jaroslav
-- desktop mailing list desktop@lists.fedoraproject.org https://admin.fedoraproject.org/mailman/listinfo/desktop
On Mon, Aug 25, 2014 at 9:32 AM, Jaroslav Reznik jreznik@redhat.com wrote:
----- Original Message -----
On Sun, Aug 24, 2014 at 22:53:01 +0300, Elad Alfassa elad@fedoraproject.org wrote:
Hello Websites and Desktop lists.
I think it's time we drop our usage of start.fedoraproject.org as the default start page for Firefox in Fedora and simply use the firefox about:home page as the default starting page for the browser.
What do you think?
I'd rather see about:blank used.
about:blank looks like "hey, my internet is broken!". Maybe we can do our own version of about:home? As it's what many users expect to see - search field. With links to the user related content.
I think it's useful to have some relevant links/content available, I agree things like the planet should not be there, but it certainly could do with a revamp in general.
Peter
On Sun, Aug 24, 2014 at 10:53:01PM +0300, Elad Alfassa wrote:
Generally, the start page was designed to somehow be a gateway for Fedora to encourage people to participate and contribute. But I'm not sure if it really works.
The web stats for Fedora Magazine show start.fpo as our top referrer after search engines (in aggregate) and fedoraproject.org itself. It looks like a lot of people are using it and I'd hate to cut that off.
I think a redesign might be in order, though.
On Tue, Aug 26, 2014 at 11:12 PM, Matthew Miller mattdm@fedoraproject.org wrote:
On Sun, Aug 24, 2014 at 10:53:01PM +0300, Elad Alfassa wrote:
Generally, the start page was designed to somehow be a gateway for Fedora to encourage people to participate and contribute. But I'm not sure if it really works.
The web stats for Fedora Magazine show start.fpo as our top referrer after search engines (in aggregate) and fedoraproject.org itself. It looks like a lot of people are using it and I'd hate to cut that off.
I think a redesign might be in order, though.
Matthew Miller mattdm@fedoraproject.org Fedora Project Leader -- websites mailing list websites@lists.fedoraproject.org https://admin.fedoraproject.org/mailman/listinfo/websites
Mo is actually working on some mockups for a redesign right now, after a short discussion we had about this on IRC. We are making some progress. If it doesn't work well we could have Fedora Magazine as the default homepage.
On 08/26/2014 04:17 PM, Elad Alfassa wrote:
Mo is actually working on some mockups for a redesign right now, after a short discussion we had about this on IRC. We are making some progress. If it doesn't work well we could have Fedora Magazine as the default homepage.
Here is what we have right now:
http://i.imgur.com/TJeZmYB.png
(will have it in the github repo soon; I forgot my github password and it locked me out for a while :( )
If you wanna discuss feel free to pop into #fedora-websites *right now* :) Me and elad and robyduck are talking through it.
~m
On Tue, 2014-08-26 at 16:56 -0400, Máirín Duffy wrote:
Here is what we have right now:
Well it looks pretty, that's good, but the content is only relevant to Fedora developers. I'm interested in the GNOME/Wayland test day and I'm interested in Adam Williamson, but I don't think this would be an interesting start page for our users.
----- Original Message -----
On Tue, 2014-08-26 at 16:56 -0400, Máirín Duffy wrote:
Here is what we have right now:
Well it looks pretty, that's good, but the content is only relevant to Fedora developers. I'm interested in the GNOME/Wayland test day and I'm interested in Adam Williamson, but I don't think this would be an interesting start page for our users.
It would be - these are articles from Fedora Magazine. Just by coincidence, mock up show more developer oriented arcticles. Even I think it's great even for user to read stories about developers behind Fedora.
Look on http://fedoramagazine.org/ to check out content usually available there, maybe with clever usage of tags, we could balance content shown to users. On the other hand, we want our users to become contributors one day.
Jaroslav
-- desktop mailing list desktop@lists.fedoraproject.org https://admin.fedoraproject.org/mailman/listinfo/desktop
Máirín Duffy (duffy@fedoraproject.org) said:
On 08/26/2014 04:17 PM, Elad Alfassa wrote:
Mo is actually working on some mockups for a redesign right now, after a short discussion we had about this on IRC. We are making some progress. If it doesn't work well we could have Fedora Magazine as the default homepage.
Here is what we have right now:
http://i.imgur.com/TJeZmYB.png
(will have it in the github repo soon; I forgot my github password and it locked me out for a while :( )
If you wanna discuss feel free to pop into #fedora-websites *right now* :) Me and elad and robyduck are talking through it.
While I like the idea of focusing on more end-user focused content from the magazine, having it be:
Docs | Help | Magazine
...
Content from magazine!
...
Magazine! | Contribute
verges a little towards overkill to me; perhaps remove one or both of the magazine links in the top/bottom bar? The 'Read more at fedoramagazine.org' could be moved into the center content section.
Also, I assume it's a stock footer, but I wonder whether the 'content license' still holds if we're pulling the center content from the magazine.
Bill
On 08/27/2014 01:48 PM, Bill Nottingham wrote:
verges a little towards overkill to me; perhaps remove one or both of the magazine links in the top/bottom bar? The 'Read more at fedoramagazine.org' could be moved into the center content section.
the lower magazine link is more like, "here's 5 articles if you want to see more click here", while the top one is more a general pointer to the mag for folks who down scan past the top. maybe we could swap out ask.fpo for the mag link in the top? but we thought that might be redundant too since ask.fpo is on the help page. then again ask is pretty darn helpful...
~m
On Tue, Aug 26, 2014 at 04:12:12PM -0400, Matthew Miller wrote:
On Sun, Aug 24, 2014 at 10:53:01PM +0300, Elad Alfassa wrote:
Generally, the start page was designed to somehow be a gateway for Fedora to encourage people to participate and contribute. But I'm not sure if it really works.
The web stats for Fedora Magazine show start.fpo as our top referrer after search engines (in aggregate) and fedoraproject.org itself. It looks like a lot of people are using it and I'd hate to cut that off.
I think a redesign might be in order, though.
It was agreed that in the short term, while redesign is being concocted, the Fedora Magazine would be featured prominently at start.fpo as opposed to the Planet feed. I believe the thought is this is more applicable to general users who mainly see start.fpo anyway.
On Tue, Aug 26, 2014 at 04:22:33PM -0400, Paul W. Frields wrote:
On Tue, Aug 26, 2014 at 04:12:12PM -0400, Matthew Miller wrote:
On Sun, Aug 24, 2014 at 10:53:01PM +0300, Elad Alfassa wrote:
Generally, the start page was designed to somehow be a gateway for Fedora to encourage people to participate and contribute. But I'm not sure if it really works.
The web stats for Fedora Magazine show start.fpo as our top referrer after search engines (in aggregate) and fedoraproject.org itself. It looks like a lot of people are using it and I'd hate to cut that off.
I think a redesign might be in order, though.
It was agreed that in the short term, while redesign is being
^^^^^^ sorry, s/agreed/proposed/
concocted, the Fedora Magazine would be featured prominently at start.fpo as opposed to the Planet feed. I believe the thought is this is more applicable to general users who mainly see start.fpo anyway.
Why not something like this: http://start.ubuntu.com/current/?sourceid=hp
Fedora logo at top, Google Search (Fedora could take revenue itself or share it with Mozilla or whatever it wants) and a few important links below with icons.
One option and I would encourage Fedora to do this is to add a survey asking what users want to see on your current start page and provide some mockups and different ideas and go with what your users want.
On Tue, Aug 26, 2014 at 1:12 PM, Matthew Miller mattdm@fedoraproject.org wrote:
On Sun, Aug 24, 2014 at 10:53:01PM +0300, Elad Alfassa wrote:
Generally, the start page was designed to somehow be a gateway for Fedora to encourage people to participate and contribute. But I'm not sure if it really works.
The web stats for Fedora Magazine show start.fpo as our top referrer after search engines (in aggregate) and fedoraproject.org itself. It looks like a lot of people are using it and I'd hate to cut that off.
I think a redesign might be in order, though.
Matthew Miller mattdm@fedoraproject.org Fedora Project Leader -- desktop mailing list desktop@lists.fedoraproject.org https://admin.fedoraproject.org/mailman/listinfo/desktop
On Tue, Aug 26, 2014 at 6:34 PM, Benjamin Kerensa bkerensa@gmail.com wrote:
Why not something like this: http://start.ubuntu.com/current/?sourceid=hp
Fedora logo at top, Google Search (Fedora could take revenue itself or share it with Mozilla or whatever it wants) and a few important links below with icons.
Because of the way Fedora is set up, it's difficult for it to do anything directly with revenue. That isn't really a viable option.
One option and I would encourage Fedora to do this is to add a survey asking what users want to see on your current start page and provide some mockups and different ideas and go with what your users want.
Except the start page should also be useful for new users. If they're new, they have no idea what they want yet.
(Aside: please don't top post.)
josh
On Tue, Aug 26, 2014 at 1:12 PM, Matthew Miller mattdm@fedoraproject.org wrote:
On Sun, Aug 24, 2014 at 10:53:01PM +0300, Elad Alfassa wrote:
Generally, the start page was designed to somehow be a gateway for Fedora to encourage people to participate and contribute. But I'm not sure if it really works.
The web stats for Fedora Magazine show start.fpo as our top referrer after search engines (in aggregate) and fedoraproject.org itself. It looks like a lot of people are using it and I'd hate to cut that off.
I think a redesign might be in order, though.
Matthew Miller mattdm@fedoraproject.org Fedora Project Leader -- desktop mailing list desktop@lists.fedoraproject.org https://admin.fedoraproject.org/mailman/listinfo/desktop
-- Benjamin Kerensa -- desktop mailing list desktop@lists.fedoraproject.org https://admin.fedoraproject.org/mailman/listinfo/desktop
----- Original Message -----
On Tue, Aug 26, 2014 at 6:34 PM, Benjamin Kerensa bkerensa@gmail.com wrote:
Why not something like this: http://start.ubuntu.com/current/?sourceid=hp
Fedora logo at top, Google Search (Fedora could take revenue itself or share it with Mozilla or whatever it wants) and a few important links below with icons.
Because of the way Fedora is set up, it's difficult for it to do anything directly with revenue. That isn't really a viable option.
There's also that question if Google is suitable search provider for Fedora and it would end with yet another search engine fight :).
On the other hand - many users expect the browser start page contains search field (and I know, there are several options but...).
One option and I would encourage Fedora to do this is to add a survey asking what users want to see on your current start page and provide some mockups and different ideas and go with what your users want.
Except the start page should also be useful for new users. If they're new, they have no idea what they want yet.
Agreed.
Jaroslav
(Aside: please don't top post.)
josh
On Tue, Aug 26, 2014 at 1:12 PM, Matthew Miller mattdm@fedoraproject.org wrote:
On Sun, Aug 24, 2014 at 10:53:01PM +0300, Elad Alfassa wrote:
Generally, the start page was designed to somehow be a gateway for Fedora to encourage people to participate and contribute. But I'm not sure if it really works.
The web stats for Fedora Magazine show start.fpo as our top referrer after search engines (in aggregate) and fedoraproject.org itself. It looks like a lot of people are using it and I'd hate to cut that off.
I think a redesign might be in order, though.
Matthew Miller mattdm@fedoraproject.org Fedora Project Leader -- desktop mailing list desktop@lists.fedoraproject.org https://admin.fedoraproject.org/mailman/listinfo/desktop
-- Benjamin Kerensa -- desktop mailing list desktop@lists.fedoraproject.org https://admin.fedoraproject.org/mailman/listinfo/desktop
-- desktop mailing list desktop@lists.fedoraproject.org https://admin.fedoraproject.org/mailman/listinfo/desktop
Elad Alfassa wrote:
Hello Websites and Desktop lists.
I think it's time we drop our usage of start.fedoraproject.org as the default start page for Firefox in Fedora and simply use the firefox about:home page as the default starting page for the browser.
What do you think?
I would rather energy be put into making start.fedoraproject.org better and address the concerns you raised about it. Your proposal to use about:home doesn't address many your concerns either.
-- Rex
desktop@lists.fedoraproject.org
-
Benjamin Kerensa -
Bill Nottingham -
Bruno Wolff III -
drago01 -
Elad Alfassa -
Jaroslav Reznik -
Josh Boyer -
Matthew Miller -
Michael Catanzaro -
Máirín Duffy -
Paul W. Frields -
Peter Robinson -
Rex Dieter