I propose that we remove the "Start Here" icon from the default desktop for the following reasons:
- It presents the same choices that the Main Menu does, just in a different way. This is potentially confusing and inconsistent. The Menu is a much faster way to launch apps anyway.
- The name "Start Here" implies that there it will take you to a set of steps to set up your desktop, but it doesn't do that.
- It's basically useless. :)
I think a case could be made for a first-run desktop tutorial kind of thing, but "Start Here" as it currently exists is not it. I propose that we remove this icon for FC3test2 and see if anybody complains.
Thoughts, Brent
On Tue, 13 Jul 2004 15:32:02 -0400, Brent Fox bfox@redhat.com wrote:
I propose that we remove the "Start Here" icon from the default desktop for the following reasons:
- It's basically useless. :)
I think a case could be made for a first-run desktop tutorial kind of thing, but "Start Here" as it currently exists is not it. I propose that we remove this icon for FC3test2 and see if anybody complains.
If its removed, are there any plans to actually create anything akin to the first-run tutorial kind of thing you mention? Perhaps instead of thinking a 'first run' tutorial thing, perhaps i can infect you with the idea of something useful beyond first run, a sort of task based guided tour that can be referenced when people want to learn how to do a new task but don't really know what applications to use. And if I want to get all starry-eyed, it could be updated over the lifetime of its release to encompass more task based help beyond what was available at install time.
-jef"theora videos of applications in use will be a must for any such task based tutorial guide"spaleta
On Tue, 2004-07-13 at 15:45, Jeff Spaleta wrote:
On Tue, 13 Jul 2004 15:32:02 -0400, Brent Fox bfox@redhat.com wrote:
I propose that we remove the "Start Here" icon from the default desktop for the following reasons:
- It's basically useless. :)
I think a case could be made for a first-run desktop tutorial kind of thing, but "Start Here" as it currently exists is not it. I propose that we remove this icon for FC3test2 and see if anybody complains.
If its removed, are there any plans to actually create anything akin to the first-run tutorial kind of thing you mention? Perhaps instead of thinking a 'first run' tutorial thing, perhaps i can infect you with the idea of something useful beyond first run, a sort of task based guided tour that can be referenced when people want to learn how to do a new task but don't really know what applications to use. And if I want to get all starry-eyed, it could be updated over the lifetime of its release to encompass more task based help beyond what was available at install time.
I agree that such a tutorial could be useful, but I know of no plans to create one. However, I don't think that the removal of the current "Start Here" should wait on the creation of a tutorial. It's not like there's any current functionality that people will miss if it's removed.
--Brent
On Tue, 13 Jul 2004 15:50:27 -0400, Brent Fox bfox@redhat.com wrote:
I agree that such a tutorial could be useful, but I know of no plans to create one. However, I don't think that the removal of the current "Start Here" should wait on the creation of a tutorial. It's not like there's any current functionality that people will miss if it's removed.
On the contrary, its how i test to make sure my trashcan is functional
-jef
Agreed. Removal of Start Here is considered upstream too, AFAIK.
On Tue, 2004-07-13 at 15:32, Brent Fox wrote:
I propose that we remove the "Start Here" icon from the default desktop for the following reasons:
- It presents the same choices that the Main Menu does, just in a
different way. This is potentially confusing and inconsistent. The Menu is a much faster way to launch apps anyway.
- The name "Start Here" implies that there it will take you to a set of
steps to set up your desktop, but it doesn't do that.
- It's basically useless. :)
I think a case could be made for a first-run desktop tutorial kind of thing, but "Start Here" as it currently exists is not it. I propose that we remove this icon for FC3test2 and see if anybody complains.
Thoughts, Brent
There have been a bunch of proposals and discussions about newbie tutorials and HowTo's. Why not here?
Em Terça, 13 de Julho de 2004 20:32, Brent Fox escreveu:
I propose that we remove the "Start Here" icon from the default desktop for the following reasons:
Please remove it.
I agree with this. The 'Start Here' icon is useless, even for newbies. If they have a brain in their head they should figure out how to click on the 'Start Menu' equivalent (at least, from a Windows-user's point of view).
I also agree that a first-run tutorial would be much more useful for first-time users. But don't make the first-run tutorial as retarded as Windows's tutorials which tell you things like 'move the mouse and click. Like this!'
Regards,
Steven Noonan
-----Original Message----- From: fedora-desktop-list-bounces@redhat.com [mailto:fedora-desktop-list-bounces@redhat.com] On Behalf Of Brent Fox Sent: Tuesday, July 13, 2004 12:32 PM To: fedora-desktop-list@redhat.com Subject: proposal to remove the "Start Here" icon
I propose that we remove the "Start Here" icon from the default desktop for the following reasons:
- It presents the same choices that the Main Menu does, just in a different way. This is potentially confusing and inconsistent. The Menu is a much faster way to launch apps anyway.
- The name "Start Here" implies that there it will take you to a set of steps to set up your desktop, but it doesn't do that.
- It's basically useless. :)
I think a case could be made for a first-run desktop tutorial kind of thing, but "Start Here" as it currently exists is not it. I propose that we remove this icon for FC3test2 and see if anybody complains.
Thoughts, Brent
Steven Noonan wrote:
I agree with this. The 'Start Here' icon is useless, even for newbies. If they have a brain in their head they should figure out how to click on the 'Start Menu' equivalent (at least, from a Windows-user's point of view).
Has anyone opened a RH Bugzilla to track this? While we are all in agreement here, it may become forgotten and never happen if it isn't filed and become a FC3 Target.
Warren Togami wtogami@redhat.com
On Fri, 2004-07-16 at 06:48, Warren Togami wrote:
Steven Noonan wrote:
I agree with this. The 'Start Here' icon is useless, even for newbies. If they have a brain in their head they should figure out how to click on the 'Start Menu' equivalent (at least, from a Windows-user's point of view).
Has anyone opened a RH Bugzilla to track this? While we are all in agreement here, it may become forgotten and never happen if it isn't filed and become a FC3 Target.
http://bugzilla.redhat.com/bugzilla/show_bug.cgi?id=128021
--Brent
On Fri, 2004-07-16 at 16:04, Brent Fox wrote:
On Fri, 2004-07-16 at 06:48, Warren Togami wrote:
Steven Noonan wrote:
I agree with this. The 'Start Here' icon is useless, even for newbies. If they have a brain in their head they should figure out how to click on the 'Start Menu' equivalent (at least, from a Windows-user's point of view).
Has anyone opened a RH Bugzilla to track this? While we are all in agreement here, it may become forgotten and never happen if it isn't filed and become a FC3 Target.
I just killed Start here in upstream nautilus. It will go away when we update.
=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-= Alexander Larsson Red Hat, Inc alexl@redhat.com alla@lysator.liu.se He's a world-famous coffee-fuelled farmboy on his last day in the job. She's an orphaned green-skinned widow who don't take no shit from nobody. They fight crime!
On Fri, 2004-07-16 at 13:05, Alexander Larsson wrote:
On Fri, 2004-07-16 at 16:04, Brent Fox wrote:
On Fri, 2004-07-16 at 06:48, Warren Togami wrote:
Steven Noonan wrote:
I agree with this. The 'Start Here' icon is useless, even for newbies. If they have a brain in their head they should figure out how to click on the 'Start Menu' equivalent (at least, from a Windows-user's point of view).
Has anyone opened a RH Bugzilla to track this? While we are all in agreement here, it may become forgotten and never happen if it isn't filed and become a FC3 Target.
I just killed Start here in upstream nautilus. It will go away when we update.
Great. Thanks.
--Brent
=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-= Alexander Larsson Red Hat, Inc alexl@redhat.com alla@lysator.liu.se He's a world-famous coffee-fuelled farmboy on his last day in the job. She's an orphaned green-skinned widow who don't take no shit from nobody. They fight crime!
Brent Fox wrote:
On Fri, 2004-07-16 at 13:05, Alexander Larsson wrote:
On Fri, 2004-07-16 at 16:04, Brent Fox wrote:
On Fri, 2004-07-16 at 06:48, Warren Togami wrote:
Steven Noonan wrote:
I agree with this. The 'Start Here' icon is useless, even for newbies. If they have a brain in their head they should figure out how to click on the 'Start Menu' equivalent (at least, from a Windows-user's point of view).
Has anyone opened a RH Bugzilla to track this? While we are all in agreement here, it may become forgotten and never happen if it isn't filed and become a FC3 Target.
I just killed Start here in upstream nautilus. It will go away when we update.
Great. Thanks.
--Brent
=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-= Alexander Larsson Red Hat, Inc alexl@redhat.com alla@lysator.liu.se He's a world-famous coffee-fuelled farmboy on his last day in the job. She's an orphaned green-skinned widow who don't take no shit from nobody. They fight crime!
If this icon really bothers you, just delete it. For people who want to keep it , I think that's cool to have a second way to access all those tools. Mark
I agree. The first thing i do after the login, is to send "Start Here" to trash. It's really useless. And i also agree, whit the inclusion of some sort of inicial "tutorial" or walk-trough. That could help a lot the Fedora Rookies. :) With some basic steps, where are some tools or how to configure some simple stuff. And why not a bit of Fedora, evolution history. ;)
<?php Nando->signature(); ?>
----- Original Message ----- From: "Brent Fox" bfox@redhat.com To: fedora-desktop-list@redhat.com Sent: Tuesday, July 13, 2004 8:32 PM Subject: proposal to remove the "Start Here" icon
I propose that we remove the "Start Here" icon from the default desktop for the following reasons:
- It presents the same choices that the Main Menu does, just in a
different way. This is potentially confusing and inconsistent. The Menu is a much faster way to launch apps anyway.
- The name "Start Here" implies that there it will take you to a set of
steps to set up your desktop, but it doesn't do that.
- It's basically useless. :)
I think a case could be made for a first-run desktop tutorial kind of thing, but "Start Here" as it currently exists is not it. I propose that we remove this icon for FC3test2 and see if anybody complains.
Thoughts, Brent
-- Fedora-desktop-list mailing list Fedora-desktop-list@redhat.com http://www.redhat.com/mailman/listinfo/fedora-desktop-list
What about removing the GNOME-start -> "System Config" instead and place "Start Here" in that menu? It is frustrating for a new user to see the admin options, that they have no rights to enter.
Maby then put the system tools in the same menu?
A little Menu cleanup is in order.
/Bjorn
fre, 2004-07-16 kl. 10:04 skrev Nando:
I agree. The first thing i do after the login, is to send "Start Here" to trash. It's really useless. And i also agree, whit the inclusion of some sort of inicial "tutorial" or walk-trough. That could help a lot the Fedora Rookies. :) With some basic steps, where are some tools or how to configure some simple stuff. And why not a bit of Fedora, evolution history. ;)
<?php Nando->signature(); ?>
----- Original Message ----- From: "Brent Fox" bfox@redhat.com To: fedora-desktop-list@redhat.com Sent: Tuesday, July 13, 2004 8:32 PM Subject: proposal to remove the "Start Here" icon
I propose that we remove the "Start Here" icon from the default desktop for the following reasons:
- It presents the same choices that the Main Menu does, just in a
different way. This is potentially confusing and inconsistent. The Menu is a much faster way to launch apps anyway.
- The name "Start Here" implies that there it will take you to a set of
steps to set up your desktop, but it doesn't do that.
- It's basically useless. :)
I think a case could be made for a first-run desktop tutorial kind of thing, but "Start Here" as it currently exists is not it. I propose that we remove this icon for FC3test2 and see if anybody complains.
Thoughts, Brent
-- Fedora-desktop-list mailing list Fedora-desktop-list@redhat.com http://www.redhat.com/mailman/listinfo/fedora-desktop-list
I agree with this also. A menu cleanup, and re-arrange is a need. Some config tools, are scattered over some menus. Will gnome menu editing, will be possible in FC3? Is it planned?
----- Original Message ----- From: "Bjorn Andersen" ba@linuxin.dk To: "Discussions about development for the Fedora desktop" fedora-desktop-list@redhat.com Sent: Friday, July 16, 2004 3:02 PM Subject: Re: proposal to remove the "Start Here" icon
What about removing the GNOME-start -> "System Config" instead and place "Start Here" in that menu? It is frustrating for a new user to see the admin options, that they have no rights to enter.
Maby then put the system tools in the same menu?
A little Menu cleanup is in order.
/Bjorn
fre, 2004-07-16 kl. 10:04 skrev Nando:
I agree. The first thing i do after the login, is to send "Start Here" to trash. It's really useless. And i also agree, whit the inclusion of some sort of inicial "tutorial"
or
walk-trough. That could help a lot the Fedora Rookies. :) With some basic steps, where are some tools or how to configure some
simple
stuff. And why not a bit of Fedora, evolution history. ;)
<?php Nando->signature(); ?>
----- Original Message ----- From: "Brent Fox" bfox@redhat.com To: fedora-desktop-list@redhat.com Sent: Tuesday, July 13, 2004 8:32 PM Subject: proposal to remove the "Start Here" icon
I propose that we remove the "Start Here" icon from the default
desktop
for the following reasons:
- It presents the same choices that the Main Menu does, just in a
different way. This is potentially confusing and inconsistent. The Menu is a much faster way to launch apps anyway.
- The name "Start Here" implies that there it will take you to a set
of
steps to set up your desktop, but it doesn't do that.
- It's basically useless. :)
I think a case could be made for a first-run desktop tutorial kind of thing, but "Start Here" as it currently exists is not it. I propose that we remove this icon for FC3test2 and see if anybody complains.
Thoughts, Brent
-- Fedora-desktop-list mailing list Fedora-desktop-list@redhat.com http://www.redhat.com/mailman/listinfo/fedora-desktop-list
-- Fedora-desktop-list mailing list Fedora-desktop-list@redhat.com http://www.redhat.com/mailman/listinfo/fedora-desktop-list
Brent Fox wrote:
I propose that we remove the "Start Here" icon from the default desktop for the following reasons:
- It presents the same choices that the Main Menu does, just in a
different way. This is potentially confusing and inconsistent. The Menu is a much faster way to launch apps anyway.
But it's nice to have one window with all of the "panels" available for double clicking on. It's a pain to have to go through the menu to get to each pref panel especially on low resolution.
- The name "Start Here" implies that there it will take you to a set of
steps to set up your desktop, but it doesn't do that.
But it does. It gives you the preferences and system settings in a window, which some people prefer to the menus.
- It's basically useless. :)
Allowing another way to get the same window should still be there though.
I think a case could be made for a first-run desktop tutorial kind of thing, but "Start Here" as it currently exists is not it. I propose that we remove this icon for FC3test2 and see if anybody complains.
Maybe "start here" should be renamed to "Control Panel" or something.
While it isn't a step through introduction to the system, it does provide an alternate view in the "spacial" way.
You're not taking away the "start-here:///" target in nautilus are you?
Mike
On Fri, 2004-07-16 at 19:20, Mike Fedyk wrote:
Brent Fox wrote:
I propose that we remove the "Start Here" icon from the default desktop for the following reasons:
- It presents the same choices that the Main Menu does, just in a
different way. This is potentially confusing and inconsistent. The Menu is a much faster way to launch apps anyway.
But it's nice to have one window with all of the "panels" available for double clicking on. It's a pain to have to go through the menu to get to each pref panel especially on low resolution.
Just to give some historical background, when we introduced Start Here in Red Hat 8 or so, our goal, or at least, my goal, was to deemphasize and hopefully eventually get rid of the big panel menu.
For apps there are basically three things the user might want to do:
- Start an app they are already familiar with. Finding an item two levels deep in a big menu is an awful way to do this. You want to encourage, even force the user to make a favorites menu entry for it.
- Start an app that they don't know about yet to accomplish a particular task. The panel menu is an awful way of searching for an app to do a particular task.
- Browse through the apps on the system seeing what cool things they can do. The panel menu is an awful way of browsing apps on the system.
I'd much rather see a menu used only as a short list of favorite applications and common actions like "logout" and have a real app browser for everything else.
But I've never been very successful at pushing this point of view...
Regards, Owen
On Sat, 2004-07-17 at 10:37 -0400, Owen Taylor wrote:
Just to give some historical background, when we introduced Start Here in Red Hat 8 or so, our goal, or at least, my goal, was to deemphasize and hopefully eventually get rid of the big panel menu.
Ok, that's a pretty good goal I think. But the reason I never used "Start Here" is simply because I could never see it - I always run nearly every application maximized. The panel menu is always accessible and in the same place.
I do think "Start Here" has a major advantage over the panel menu in that it's meaningful to someone new to our desktop - when I first switched to Fedora it took me a minute to realize that the Red Hat icon was actually a menu. Before I'd been used nearly stock upstream GNOME on Debian for years, with the "Applications" menu.
Owen Taylor wrote:
On Fri, 2004-07-16 at 19:20, Mike Fedyk wrote:
Brent Fox wrote:
I propose that we remove the "Start Here" icon from the default desktop for the following reasons:
- It presents the same choices that the Main Menu does, just in a
different way. This is potentially confusing and inconsistent. The Menu is a much faster way to launch apps anyway.
But it's nice to have one window with all of the "panels" available for double clicking on. It's a pain to have to go through the menu to get to each pref panel especially on low resolution.
Just to give some historical background, when we introduced Start Here in Red Hat 8 or so, our goal, or at least, my goal, was to deemphasize and hopefully eventually get rid of the big panel menu.
Thanks Owen,
For apps there are basically three things the user might want to do:
- Start an app they are already familiar with. Finding an item two levels deep in a big menu is an awful way to do this. You want to encourage, even force the user to make a favorites menu entry for it.
Encourage yes. Force, no.
A MRU and MFU application list in the red hat/start menu seems like a good solution.
- Start an app that they don't know about yet to accomplish a particular task. The panel menu is an awful way of searching for an app to do a particular task.
Yep, but most people have been trained to do that, and concepts like "search" don't really seem to penetrate into their psyche. :-/
- Browse through the apps on the system seeing what cool things they can do. The panel menu is an awful way of browsing apps on the system.
True. Why not have both? Windows did this by using base concepts of directories and shortcuts. And it allows the user to modify their menu layout with base tools. Very unix like don't you think?
I'd much rather see a menu used only as a short list of favorite applications and common actions like "logout" and have a real app browser for everything else.
Well, where is this app browser you mention? If that's the intention of "start here" then it's really missing the desired functionality...
But I've never been very successful at pushing this point of view...
Maybe with some work it can get somewhere.
On Sat, 2004-07-17 at 10:37, Owen Taylor wrote:
On Fri, 2004-07-16 at 19:20, Mike Fedyk wrote:
Brent Fox wrote:
I propose that we remove the "Start Here" icon from the default desktop for the following reasons:
- It presents the same choices that the Main Menu does, just in a
different way. This is potentially confusing and inconsistent. The Menu is a much faster way to launch apps anyway.
But it's nice to have one window with all of the "panels" available for double clicking on. It's a pain to have to go through the menu to get to each pref panel especially on low resolution.
Just to give some historical background, when we introduced Start Here in Red Hat 8 or so, our goal, or at least, my goal, was to deemphasize and hopefully eventually get rid of the big panel menu.
For apps there are basically three things the user might want to do:
Start an app they are already familiar with. Finding an item two levels deep in a big menu is an awful way to do this. You want to encourage, even force the user to make a favorites menu entry for it.
Start an app that they don't know about yet to accomplish a particular task. The panel menu is an awful way of searching for an app to do a particular task.
Browse through the apps on the system seeing what cool things they can do. The panel menu is an awful way of browsing apps on the system.
I'd much rather see a menu used only as a short list of favorite applications and common actions like "logout" and have a real app browser for everything else.
But I've never been very successful at pushing this point of view...
Regards, Owen
While I agree that "Start Here" is a rather lame label, I would rather have seen the label changed to something more intuitive...although I seem to remember reading that removal is already a done deal.
Rather than giving a long exposition on "the way the desktop ought to be according to Karen" since I doubt anyone cares, I am just going to ask a few questions and see if it engenders any discussion.
Why does it seem that developers/people in charge are so eager to remove things from the desktop? Should the desktop not be the users primary way of accessing the system? Why shouldn't the desktop present icons so a simple point and click will bring up 90% of all the things a user typically does in a day's work? Does anyone agree that perhaps the reason for the lack of acceptance of the Linux desktop is what I see as a bias on the part of "those in charge" away from using truly graphical methods and a reliance on the keyboard to do the heavy lifting? Isn't a point and click on a desktop icon even more efficient than launching from a menu? Shouldn't the desktop be easily configurable as the ultimate "Favorites Menu"?
While I realize that most all of the tools are in place already so that one can cover her desktop in just the way suggested above, I wonder why the default Fedora desktop is so barren and under-utilized. Surely it can be used for more important purposes than displaying some pretty wallpaper.
KAS
On Sat, 2004-07-17 at 18:10, K. Spearel wrote:
Why does it seem that developers/people in charge are so eager to remove things from the desktop?
The problem with the desktop is that it's covered up most of the time, and when not covered up is packed with zillions of documents and other clutter.
The panel is a lot better for controls.
Does anyone agree that perhaps the reason for the lack of acceptance of the Linux desktop is what I see as a bias on the part of "those in charge" away from using truly graphical methods and a reliance on the keyboard to do the heavy lifting?
I don't really agree, since you could summarize almost all the work we do here as eliminating various reasons you currently have to use the command line.
Shouldn't the desktop be easily configurable as the ultimate "Favorites Menu"?
It is, btw - try dragging any applications menu item or panel launcher icon to the desktop.
Havoc
On Sat, 17 Jul 2004 19:52:03 -0400, Havoc Pennington wrote:
Shouldn't the desktop be easily configurable as the ultimate "Favorites Menu"?
It is, btw - try dragging any applications menu item or panel launcher icon to the desktop.
Very good to know -- when it works. I didn't. Many thanks! But ...
I tried it with Pan (0.14.2 under FC1); it three-quarter-worked: put a launcher on the desktop, and also let me put the launcher where I wanted it. But now it's there on all six workspaces, of which exactly one is reserved for Pan and only Pan. I'll take it away again, most likely.
So I tried again, with Opera (7.52) -- and it under-half-worked: put a launcher in the worst place for me (way in the upper left corner, which I *always* have covered up, on all six workspaces), and wouldn't let me move it at all. It also put a great big new one on the panel, in addition to the one in the drawer where it belongs. (It didn't do that with Pan.) So I removed it from desktop and panel without ever even invoking it.
I'm sure linux would let me put a launcher on one and only one particular workspace, if I knew how; but I don't. Maybe making a GUI to do that, or an option added into the present one, would help any others who work the way I do.
The beauty of this would be its simplicity: when I click my usenet workspace, either the reader window would already fill it (if already open), or the launcher would be handy (but out of sight when the app is already open).
Marginalium: I'd like to be able to make a given workspace launch other apps into a pre-designated other workspace. So, for instance, if I click on a URL in a usenet message, my chosen browser would open, not out over the top of my reader, but in the workspace adjacent to the reader. Dunno if that's related here ...
K. Spearel wrote:
Why does it seem that developers/people in charge are so eager to remove things from the desktop? Should the desktop not be the users primary way of accessing the system? Why shouldn't the desktop present icons so a simple point and click will bring up 90% of all the things a user typically does in a day's work? Does anyone agree that perhaps the reason for the lack of acceptance of the Linux desktop is what I see as a bias on the part of "those in charge" away from using truly graphical methods and a reliance on the keyboard to do the heavy lifting? Isn't a point and click on a desktop icon even more efficient than launching from a menu? Shouldn't the desktop be easily configurable as the ultimate "Favorites Menu"?
It seems to me that more icons on the desktop, and a drawer of desktop contents (for those that don't see their desktop often) would be a great default setup...
On Sat, 17 Jul 2004 10:37:45 -0400, Owen Taylor otaylor@redhat.com wrote:
I'd much rather see a menu used only as a short list of favorite applications and common actions like "logout" and have a real app browser for everything else.
I think this is a good idea. A "browser" view for all installed applications backup by some logic or editing ability so the main menu could be used as a favorites or a most recent/frequeny hotlist for the user. A "Browse All Applications"/"Find an Application" action in the main menu that opened up an application browser, would complement a short menu of frequently used applications, instead of one big menu for everything installed. But certaintly implementing this as a main menu action button instead of the desktop icon, would be better if the intention is to have an application browser thats meant to be used regularly and not just on first contact with the gnome desktop, because it would be very difficult to get to the icon under all those spatial nautilus windows people regularly have open.
As an crude example of how this could work, and something I already do. Start using the commandline panel applet instead of the main menu to launch programs. The history list on the applet acts as a recent applications menu. Sadly the browser button on the applet just lets you search the filesytem for executables and has no knowledge of the application .desktop entries, so you'll have to use your imagination as to how wonderful it would be if the browser button on the applet let you browse applictions instead of the filesystem.
-jef
On Sat, 2004-07-17 at 10:37 -0400, Owen Taylor wrote:
I'd much rather see a menu used only as a short list of favorite applications and common actions like "logout" and have a real app browser for everything else.
Well, this is straying from "start here" a bit. But here are some ideas: 1. Do away with start-here: (done?) 2. Place launchers for applications: and favorites: in computer: 3. Create a favorites menu applet similar to the menubar. 4. Fix the bugs in the favorites: handler such as the broken trash can. 5. If feasible, replace the "main menu" with an applet that can embed into a panel. 6. Record all application launches in the run dialog MRU. (Everyone realizes they can drag launchers from the run dialog, right?) 7. Create a MRU menu applet which generates itself from the run dialog MRU. This applet would look like the new main menu applet. 8. Fedora's default "main menu" could then be a drawer with the main menu and mru applets embedded. 9. For extra credit, modify drawers to support "text beside icon" (and fix them so they don't run off the edges of the screen), implement the favorites menu like the proposed mru and main menu applets, and this would replace both the menubar and main menu with a normal drawer that embeds favorites menu, main menu, and mru menu.
I went into some (rambling) detail and made a couple of mockups: http://webaugur.com/dave/blogger/2004/07/gnome-menus-and-start-here.html
On Fri, 2004-07-16 at 19:20, Mike Fedyk wrote:
Brent Fox wrote:
I propose that we remove the "Start Here" icon from the default desktop for the following reasons:
- It presents the same choices that the Main Menu does, just in a
different way. This is potentially confusing and inconsistent. The Menu is a much faster way to launch apps anyway.
But it's nice to have one window with all of the "panels" available for double clicking on. It's a pain to have to go through the menu to get to each pref panel especially on low resolution.
I agree that the Main Menu is not a very good way of browsing all the configuration options. I'll try to explain more below.
- The name "Start Here" implies that there it will take you to a set of
steps to set up your desktop, but it doesn't do that.
But it does. It gives you the preferences and system settings in a window, which some people prefer to the menus.
Nope. System settings is the wrong place to "Start". If changing the preferences is the first thing a user needs to do, then we've picked the wrong defaults. If the name was "Control Panel" or something like that, fine.
- It's basically useless. :)
Allowing another way to get the same window should still be there though.
Why must there be two different ways of viewing configuration options? I think we should either present the configuration options in the Menu or in a Control Panel, but not both. To be honest, I think either choice would be ok but having both is inconsistent.
How about this:
- Remove "Start Here" icon from the desktop. Instead, call it "Control Panel" and put it in the Main Menu just below "Browse Filesystems". Make it browse just "Preferences" and "System Settings" - not "Applications".
- Remove the "Preferences" and "System Settings" menus from the Main Menu. This would remove some serious clutter in the Menu.
Just some thoughts, Brent
I think a case could be made for a first-run desktop tutorial kind of thing, but "Start Here" as it currently exists is not it. I propose that we remove this icon for FC3test2 and see if anybody complains.
Maybe "start here" should be renamed to "Control Panel" or something.
While it isn't a step through introduction to the system, it does provide an alternate view in the "spacial" way.
You're not taking away the "start-here:///" target in nautilus are you?
Mike
On Mon, 2004-07-19 at 11:04 -0400, Brent Fox wrote:
How about this:
- Remove "Start Here" icon from the desktop. Instead, call it "Control
Panel" and put it in the Main Menu just below "Browse Filesystems". Make it browse just "Preferences" and "System Settings" - not "Applications".
- Remove the "Preferences" and "System Settings" menus from the Main
Menu. This would remove some serious clutter in the Menu.
great! This will also make loading of the menu faster, so I don't have to wait 2 seconds after click until it appears (celeron 1.7ghz, 256mb ram).
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