hi all I don't own a mac myself, but I'm writing here in case other people do. I'm a co developer of the sonar distribution, which is basically manjaro with speech. When I downloaded fedora 23 this morning which I also use, I noticed that it has on the USB drive an hfsplus partition with what looks like a dummy copy of the mock kernel binary to trick apples into thinking they're booting a copy of osx. Is there any way I can get a hold of the source, or instructions on how to add this to sonar? I've been going around and around in circles trying to help various people with their macs and the mac isn't booting sonar. It's refusing to even try and I know fedora works on a mac because I've used it. Sorry if this is a little OT for this list but I didn't know where else to post this. Thanks Kendell clark
On Wed, Nov 4, 2015 at 9:55 AM, kendell clark coffeekingms@gmail.com wrote:
I don't own a mac myself, but I'm writing here in case other people do. I'm a co developer of the sonar distribution, which is basically manjaro with speech. When I downloaded fedora 23 this morning which I also use, I noticed that it has on the USB drive an hfsplus partition with what looks like a dummy copy of the mock kernel binary to trick apples into thinking they're booting a copy of osx. Is there any way I can get a hold of the source, or instructions on how to add this to sonar? I've been going around and around in circles trying to help various people with their macs and the mac isn't booting sonar. It's refusing to even try and I know fedora works on a mac because I've used it. Sorry if this is a little OT for this list but I didn't know where else to post this.
Some of this is in the mactel-boot package, source is in koji, and also here: http://www.codon.org.uk/~mjg59/mactel-boot/
And then there's various logical bits in Anaconda to create the HFS+ volume, and get things installed there.
Some of this is documented on Matthew Garrett's blog, you'll have to search around: http://mjg59.dreamwidth.org/7468.html http://mjg59.dreamwidth.org/12037.html
One thing that's also unique to Fedora is the boot media. All of Fedora's x86_64 boot media will boot BIOS, UEFI, and Macs. And that too is non-trivial. http://mjg59.dreamwidth.org/11285.html
hi Wow, this is ugly. I'm not sure I'm capable of putting anything like this together. Guess this goes into the "miscellaneous and unsolvable mac bugs" category. Which is less than ideal, because the apple users I've tried to help are not known for their patience, while I don't like going around in circles. Looks like I'll be recommending fedora exclusively for mac users if sonar won't boot Thanks Kendell clark
On 11/07/2015 02:00 AM, Chris Murphy wrote:
On Wed, Nov 4, 2015 at 9:55 AM, kendell clark coffeekingms@gmail.com wrote:
I don't own a mac myself, but I'm writing here in case other people do. I'm a co developer of the sonar distribution, which is basically manjaro with speech. When I downloaded fedora 23 this morning which I also use, I noticed that it has on the USB drive an hfsplus partition with what looks like a dummy copy of the mock kernel binary to trick apples into thinking they're booting a copy of osx. Is there any way I can get a hold of the source, or instructions on how to add this to sonar? I've been going around and around in circles trying to help various people with their macs and the mac isn't booting sonar. It's refusing to even try and I know fedora works on a mac because I've used it. Sorry if this is a little OT for this list but I didn't know where else to post this.
Some of this is in the mactel-boot package, source is in koji, and also here: http://www.codon.org.uk/~mjg59/mactel-boot/
And then there's various logical bits in Anaconda to create the HFS+ volume, and get things installed there.
Some of this is documented on Matthew Garrett's blog, you'll have to search around: http://mjg59.dreamwidth.org/7468.html http://mjg59.dreamwidth.org/12037.html
One thing that's also unique to Fedora is the boot media. All of Fedora's x86_64 boot media will boot BIOS, UEFI, and Macs. And that too is non-trivial. http://mjg59.dreamwidth.org/11285.html
On Sat, Nov 7, 2015 at 9:23 AM, kendell clark coffeekingms@gmail.com wrote:
On 11/07/2015 02:00 AM, Chris Murphy wrote:
On Wed, Nov 4, 2015 at 9:55 AM, kendell clark coffeekingms@gmail.com wrote:
I don't own a mac myself, but I'm writing here in case other people do. I'm a co developer of the sonar distribution, which is basically manjaro with speech. When I downloaded fedora 23 this morning which I also use, I noticed that it has on the USB drive an hfsplus partition with what looks like a dummy copy of the mock kernel binary to trick apples into thinking they're booting a copy of osx. Is there any way I can get a hold of the source, or instructions on how to add this to sonar? I've been going around and around in circles trying to help various people with their macs and the mac isn't booting sonar. It's refusing to even try and I know fedora works on a mac because I've used it. Sorry if this is a little OT for this list but I didn't know where else to post this.
Some of this is in the mactel-boot package, source is in koji, and also here: http://www.codon.org.uk/~mjg59/mactel-boot/
And then there's various logical bits in Anaconda to create the HFS+ volume, and get things installed there.
Some of this is documented on Matthew Garrett's blog, you'll have to search around: http://mjg59.dreamwidth.org/7468.html http://mjg59.dreamwidth.org/12037.html
One thing that's also unique to Fedora is the boot media. All of Fedora's x86_64 boot media will boot BIOS, UEFI, and Macs. And that too is non-trivial. http://mjg59.dreamwidth.org/11285.html
hi Wow, this is ugly. I'm not sure I'm capable of putting anything like this together. Guess this goes into the "miscellaneous and unsolvable mac bugs" category. Which is less than ideal, because the apple users I've tried to help are not known for their patience, while I don't like going around in circles. Looks like I'll be recommending fedora exclusively for mac users if sonar won't boot Thanks Kendell clark
Well, if only there were flawless standards and specs, and if only everyone always exactly followed them, and if there were no bugs.
Apple's way of booting predates EFI, which predates UEFI. And while some things have changed behind the scenes, for the most part it's the same implementation, with the same UI/UX facing the user for something like 20+ years, across hundreds of Mac models.
So the biggest criticism I have isn't really the firmware bugs and non-standardization, because everyone falls into those traps it seems, but the fact it's not thoroughly documented anywhere. mgj59 had to first carve sticks, which were in turn used to poke various Macs, to discover a lot of these behaviors.
On 11/07/2015 07:53 AM, Chris Murphy wrote:
On Sat, Nov 7, 2015 at 9:23 AM, kendell clark coffeekingms@gmail.com wrote:
On 11/07/2015 02:00 AM, Chris Murphy wrote:
On Wed, Nov 4, 2015 at 9:55 AM, kendell clark coffeekingms@gmail.com wrote:
I don't own a mac myself, but I'm writing here in case other people do. I'm a co developer of the sonar distribution, which is basically manjaro with speech. When I downloaded fedora 23 this morning which I also use, I noticed that it has on the USB drive an hfsplus partition with what looks like a dummy copy of the mock kernel binary to trick apples into thinking they're booting a copy of osx. Is there any way I can get a hold of the source, or instructions on how to add this to sonar? I've been going around and around in circles trying to help various people with their macs and the mac isn't booting sonar. It's refusing to even try and I know fedora works on a mac because I've used it. Sorry if this is a little OT for this list but I didn't know where else to post this.
Some of this is in the mactel-boot package, source is in koji, and also here: http://www.codon.org.uk/~mjg59/mactel-boot/
And then there's various logical bits in Anaconda to create the HFS+ volume, and get things installed there.
Some of this is documented on Matthew Garrett's blog, you'll have to search around: http://mjg59.dreamwidth.org/7468.html http://mjg59.dreamwidth.org/12037.html
One thing that's also unique to Fedora is the boot media. All of Fedora's x86_64 boot media will boot BIOS, UEFI, and Macs. And that too is non-trivial. http://mjg59.dreamwidth.org/11285.html
hi Wow, this is ugly. I'm not sure I'm capable of putting anything like this together. Guess this goes into the "miscellaneous and unsolvable mac bugs" category. Which is less than ideal, because the apple users I've tried to help are not known for their patience, while I don't like going around in circles. Looks like I'll be recommending fedora exclusively for mac users if sonar won't boot Thanks Kendell clark
Well, if only there were flawless standards and specs, and if only everyone always exactly followed them, and if there were no bugs.
Apple's way of booting predates EFI, which predates UEFI. And while some things have changed behind the scenes, for the most part it's the same implementation, with the same UI/UX facing the user for something like 20+ years, across hundreds of Mac models.
So the biggest criticism I have isn't really the firmware bugs and non-standardization, because everyone falls into those traps it seems, but the fact it's not thoroughly documented anywhere. mgj59 had to first carve sticks, which were in turn used to poke various Macs, to discover a lot of these behaviors.
"I'm sorry. I wasn't criticizing mjg59's work, but rather the amount of work that's needed just to make an apple computer boot linux. If they'd simply followed the standards it would've worked. Granted they had to use something before uefi, but if they'd simply changed to uefi once this became available this wouldn't be necessary. But apple being apple, guess you can't really expect that. Thanks Kendell clark"
On Sat, Nov 7, 2015 at 3:07 PM, kendell clark coffeekingms@gmail.com wrote:
"I'm sorry. I wasn't criticizing mjg59's work, but rather the amount of work that's needed just to make an apple computer boot linux.
I know but it's a lot of work to get any machine to boot linux, it's taken essentially a complete rewrite of every boodloader to support UEFI computers. And enough things are different that even end user interaction, documentation and troubleshooting have changed.
If they'd simply followed the standards it would've worked. Granted they had to use something before uefi, but if they'd simply changed to uefi once this became available this wouldn't be necessary. But apple being apple, guess you can't really expect that.
Yeah I don't know why Apple doesn't give up Apple Special EFI Sauce in favor of UEFI, in particular as it's become abundantly clear they need Secure Boot at least as much as everyone else.
The thing is the UEFI spec doesn't disallow the way they do things. And also doesn't define any UI/UX either. In Apple's ~3 decades of experience with NVRAM, they learned early on about NVRAM confusion/corruption, to the degree they've had a keyboard shortcut to use at boot time for resetting it, something that doesn't seem to exist on any non-Mac I've come across, yet still manage to end up with corrupt or superflous and non-functioning boot entries.
So while I don't like the lack of Apple's documentation, the thing is their implementation is metric tons better UX than what anyone else is doing, standardized or not. The sad fact is, Apple have no incentive to write their own standard or spec, to make it easier for other manufacturers to replicate this UI/UX elsewhere. And the also sad fact is that every PC firmware OEM feels it's their god given right, for marketing purposes, to have completely different UI/UX per derived instance anyway. Thus a standard would almost certainly be flaunted anyway. Now we're actually at a net worse scenario on non-Macs with UEFI because one user can't actually give detailed instructions to another user because the UI's are sufficiently different that it's pointless to do so.
Anyway, I'd like things to be different, but I don't know that Apple is really any worse under the hood than anyone else. Certainly from the outside the UI/UX seems a lot more sane though.
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