So, I compared the LiveCD manifest against the Desktop (from Test1) manifest. Here's a list of things we should consider for the live - obviously, most of this won't fit (not sure if *any* of it will), but we should at least think about it and make decisions. Sorted into somewhat random categories:
I18N ---- aspell-* m17n-db-* scim-qtimm scim-tables-chinese
Games ----- atomix celestia crack-attack enigma foobillard gweled lmarbles monkey-bubble neverball
Stupid CLI but useful --------------------- attr bind-utils
Potentially broken without -------------------------- crontabs termcap gnome-screensaver pcmciautils
Things we want/need to install (even if they aren't running 'live') ------------------------------ logrotate mdadm smolt nfs-utils readahead rhgb
A11Y ---- gok
Is dialup dead? --------------- ppp rp-pppoe wvdial
Desktop things that might be useful ----------------------------------- beagle-evolution beagle-gui bitmap-fonts bug-buddy deskbar-applet glabels gnome-audio gnome-backgrounds gnome-blog gnome-keyring-manager gnome-nettool gnome-pilot-conduits gnome-system-monitor gnome-user-docs gnome-user-share gobby hpijs hplip nautilus-sendto nautilus-sendto-bluetooth samba-client sane-backends sane-frontends transmission
We need to decide ----------------- livecd has xchat desktop has xchat-gnome
Bill
David Zeuthen (david@fubar.dk) said:
orca too, probably even more important (not sure whether it was removed for FC7t1 cuz it drags in festival which is huge). Another point is that we need to work making a11y easy to enable for live cd.
orca's already there.
livecd has xchat desktop has xchat-gnome
Stick with gaim? Again, a space issue...
It's certainly an option.
Bill
On Tue, 2007-02-20 at 17:38 -0500, Bill Nottingham wrote:
gnome-screensaver
At least gnome-screensaver is needed - FC7t1 shipped without... so installs from that never locked the screen.
A11Y
gok
orca too, probably even more important (not sure whether it was removed for FC7t1 cuz it drags in festival which is huge). Another point is that we need to work making a11y easy to enable for live cd.
My plan at this point includes making the live cd boot into an accessible gdm with a face browser (we're probably going to enable face browser by default btw - for f-u-s). Then a11y / language / keyboard can be configured / enabled there.
So starting the live cd would amount to clicking the fedora-livecd face (potentially we'd do readahead while waiting for the user) Needs some thought and experimentation, but I think this is doable.
livecd has xchat desktop has xchat-gnome
Stick with gaim? Again, a space issue...
David
On Tue, 2007-02-20 at 18:07 -0500, David Zeuthen wrote:
On Tue, 2007-02-20 at 17:38 -0500, Bill Nottingham wrote:
gnome-screensaver
At least gnome-screensaver is needed - FC7t1 shipped without... so installs from that never locked the screen.
Yeah, I had to drop the extra xscreensaver screensavers and they were the only thing pulling in gnome-screensaver... this is why I really think that we need/want to move to the same type of manifest format as pungi where we reference things based on comps groups. In my queue for real soon; now that the yum depsolving stuff is out of the way, I'm getting back to livecd with a bit of a vengeance.
A11Y
gok
orca too, probably even more important (not sure whether it was removed for FC7t1 cuz it drags in festival which is huge).
Yeah, the space requirement of festival makes it (and the things which depend on it, including gok) a lot less attractive. :-/ Not sure what to do on that front
livecd has xchat desktop has xchat-gnome
Stick with gaim? Again, a space issue...
Seems like a sane enough compromise
Jeremy
On Tue, 2007-02-20 at 18:16 -0500, Jeremy Katz wrote:
orca too, probably even more important (not sure whether it was removed for FC7t1 cuz it drags in festival which is huge).
Yeah, the space requirement of festival makes it (and the things which depend on it, including gok) a lot less attractive. :-/ Not sure what to do on that front
Right. It feels like selling out willfully not making the live cd usable for users that needs accessibility. So it's not really an option to leave this out I think... plus section 508 is about to be refreshed etc.
David
On Tue, 2007-02-20 at 18:23 -0500, David Zeuthen wrote:
On Tue, 2007-02-20 at 18:16 -0500, Jeremy Katz wrote:
orca too, probably even more important (not sure whether it was removed for FC7t1 cuz it drags in festival which is huge).
Yeah, the space requirement of festival makes it (and the things which depend on it, including gok) a lot less attractive. :-/ Not sure what to do on that front
Right. It feels like selling out willfully not making the live cd usable for users that needs accessibility. So it's not really an option to leave this out I think... plus section 508 is about to be refreshed etc.
The question is how can we do it while minimizing the space requirements. Are there changes we can make to festival so that it isn't humongous? Can we split the package up so that we only require a base set of stuff?
Jeremy
On Tue, 2007-02-20 at 18:31 -0500, Jeremy Katz wrote:
The question is how can we do it while minimizing the space requirements. Are there changes we can make to festival so that it isn't humongous? Can we split the package up so that we only require a base set of stuff?
Well, this is something we ought to do for all of our packages on a continual basis - something, btw, I spent time on when I was working on OLPC (*cough* the X server pulling in perl?!? *cough*).
Anyway, I'll look at the a11y stuff but probably won't have time until after T2 is out...
David
On Tue, Feb 20, 2007 at 05:38:31PM -0500, Bill Nottingham wrote:
Stupid CLI but useful
[...]
bind-utils
Can we split this out to *just* contain "host"? :)
Is dialup dead?
ppp rp-pppoe wvdial
rp-pppoe is for ADSL, not dialup. But I think the widespread use of cheap gateway router boxes has made this less of an issue.
On Tue, Feb 20, 2007 at 06:16:35PM -0500, Jeremy Katz wrote:
orca too, probably even more important (not sure whether it was removed for FC7t1 cuz it drags in festival which is huge).
Yeah, the space requirement of festival makes it (and the things which depend on it, including gok) a lot less attractive. :-/ Not sure what to do on that front
Festival could by split up so some or all of the voices are in a subpackage.
I'm not hugely versed in the technical details, but the CMU ARCTIC HTS voices sound great to me (better than the only free alternatives, the older and much larger kal_diphone and ked_diphone ones). We could probably get away with just including the CMU ARCTIC SLT voice (female US English speaker), which is the smallest at 1756k. That alone would save us half the size of the package.
Plus, the speech-tools binaries (in libexec) probably aren't needed by almost everyone. And that's pretty significant.
*And*, there's some stuff packaged up under /usr/share/festival/dicts that I think maybe doesn't need to be. For example, there's a 118K *patch* in there, plus the 3.6M file that's getting patched. (cmudict-0.4.diff and cmudict-0.4.scm). I assume that's done to fulfill the "Any modifications must be clearly marked as such" clause in the license for the data files in that directory -- probably that could be done in a somewhat smaller way.
Oh, and some stuff in /usr/share/festival/etc which is "etc" in the "misc et cetera crap" sense, not the "config files" sense.
So, doing all of that would bring the package down to 16M from 54M (on x86_64).
Someone who knew the package better and/or had more than a minimal working knowledge of Lisp could probably pare down and/or subpackage non-core functionality even further -- I bet the minimal-but-useful set is under 10M.
On Tue, Feb 20, 2007 at 10:43:47PM -0500, Matthew Miller wrote:
On Tue, Feb 20, 2007 at 06:16:35PM -0500, Jeremy Katz wrote:
orca too, probably even more important (not sure whether it was removed for FC7t1 cuz it drags in festival which is huge).
Yeah, the space requirement of festival makes it (and the things which depend on it, including gok) a lot less attractive. :-/ Not sure what to do on that front
Festival could by split up so some or all of the voices are in a subpackage.
Filed all this as bug #229442. Because it's a good idea livecd or no. :)
On Tue, 2007-02-20 at 22:10 -0500, Matthew Miller wrote:
On Tue, Feb 20, 2007 at 05:38:31PM -0500, Bill Nottingham wrote:
Stupid CLI but useful
[...]
bind-utils
Can we split this out to *just* contain "host"? :)
Is dialup dead?
ppp rp-pppoe wvdial
rp-pppoe is for ADSL, not dialup. But I think the widespread use of cheap gateway router boxes has made this less of an issue.
I guess it's a good thing to think of "dialup" as containing ADSL as well (connecting to the Internet is what matters to users). For me, any OS where I can't go online doesn't cut it. And yes, I have a WLAN router box, but no I don't use it as such ;-).
Nils
On Fri, Feb 23, 2007 at 03:06:47PM +0100, Nils Philippsen wrote:
I guess it's a good thing to think of "dialup" as containing ADSL as well (connecting to the Internet is what matters to users). For me, any OS where I can't go online doesn't cut it. And yes, I have a WLAN router box, but no I don't use it as such ;-).
Does your ISP require pppoe?
On Fri, 2007-02-23 at 12:35 -0500, Matthew Miller wrote:
On Fri, Feb 23, 2007 at 03:06:47PM +0100, Nils Philippsen wrote:
I guess it's a good thing to think of "dialup" as containing ADSL as well (connecting to the Internet is what matters to users). For me, any OS where I can't go online doesn't cut it. And yes, I have a WLAN router box, but no I don't use it as such ;-).
Does your ISP require pppoe?
Yes. I've yet to see an ISP in Germany not requiring PPPoe if you want to do DSL -- perhaps there are some because I've got an old DSL modem with a connector for ATM besides the Ethernet one.
Nils
Matthew Miller scripst:
Is dialup dead?
ppp rp-pppoe wvdial
No, it quite certainly isn't -- here in the Czech republic, some cell phone operators provide quite sensibly priced plan for connecting over PCMCIA cards, which are quite often emulating modem, so you have to use ppp/wvdial.
Matej
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