I was just reading the mails about the Fedora print magazine. There Paul Frields said that "In the longer term we really do want to move away from the Install DVD to a Live DVD that has more relevant applications and content". We didn't had any SIG for creating Live DVD and Live DVD spin. So I have started the same. The main motive of the SIG will be to roll out one live DVD per fedora release which will have all the packages of live cd and other packages as suggested by the community. For this to be a success, community support is very much required. Interested contributors please join the SIG at https://fedoraproject.org/wiki/SIGs/LiveDVD . Any kind of suggestions or pointers are most welcome.
On Sun, Sep 13, 2009 at 10:07:46PM +0530, Aditya Patawari wrote:
I was just reading the mails about the Fedora print magazine. There Paul Frields said that "In the longer term we really do want to move away from the Install DVD to a Live DVD that has more relevant applications and content". We didn't had any SIG for creating Live DVD and Live DVD spin. So I have started the same. The main motive of the SIG will be to roll out one live DVD per fedora release which will have all the packages of live cd and other packages as suggested by the community. For this to be a success, community support is very much required. Interested contributors please join the SIG at [1]https://fedoraproject.org/wiki/SIGs/LiveDVD .� Any kind of suggestions or pointers are most welcome.
To clarify, what I was talking about was the fact that the Installation DVD is really just a continuation of what has shipped since time immemorial in Red Hat Linux many years ago. It doesn't have any particular target. At the same time, our Live CDs are highly constrained by a combination of (1) the 700 MB limit, and (2) our desire -- a worthy one, IMHO -- to keep them usable in as many languages as possible.
So whenever we talk about media that includes a bunch of applications that users do really want, but we can't include on a CD-sized medium, we fall back to the DVD, which loses much of the appeal of the Live image. I think the Desktop SIG has already been discussing the need for a larger image due to constantly having to bump out useful applications to stay under the CD size limit. At the same time, the Installation DVD does provide a helpful testing bed for Anaconda.
Mainly, I was just interested in the idea of existing SIGs feeling empowered to produce their Live spins for larger media, rather than everyone needing more applications having to fall back to the Installation DVD. I'm not sure what an equally untargeted generic Live spin really achieves, but at the same time, if there are contributors interested in producing one, our spin process certainly permits it.
Initially I was also thinking of producing a larger image to include more packages but after reading Colin's view I also thinking that instead of creating a large image with all pre-installed stuff, a large image with an internal repository can be created. It will reduce the user's need of accessing external repository without having a lot of stuff installed which a new user might find confusing and cluttered. It will leave the basic "try before use" feature of the live cd will remain as it is.
On Mon, Sep 14, 2009 at 6:04 PM, Paul W. Frields stickster@gmail.comwrote:
To clarify, what I was talking about was the fact that the Installation DVD is really just a continuation of what has shipped since time immemorial in Red Hat Linux many years ago. It doesn't have any particular target. At the same time, our Live CDs are highly constrained by a combination of (1) the 700 MB limit, and (2) our desire -- a worthy one, IMHO -- to keep them usable in as many languages as possible.
So whenever we talk about media that includes a bunch of applications that users do really want, but we can't include on a CD-sized medium, we fall back to the DVD, which loses much of the appeal of the Live image. I think the Desktop SIG has already been discussing the need for a larger image due to constantly having to bump out useful applications to stay under the CD size limit. At the same time, the Installation DVD does provide a helpful testing bed for Anaconda.
Mainly, I was just interested in the idea of existing SIGs feeling empowered to produce their Live spins for larger media, rather than everyone needing more applications having to fall back to the Installation DVD. I'm not sure what an equally untargeted generic Live spin really achieves, but at the same time, if there are contributors interested in producing one, our spin process certainly permits it.
-- Paul W. Frields http://paul.frields.org/ gpg fingerprint: 3DA6 A0AC 6D58 FEC4 0233 5906 ACDB C937 BD11 3717 http://redhat.com/ - - - - http://pfrields.fedorapeople.org/ irc.freenode.net: stickster @ #fedora-docs, #fedora-devel, #fredlug
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Aditya Patawari (aditya@adityapatawari.com) said:
I was just reading the mails about the Fedora print magazine. There Paul Frields said that "In the longer term we really do want to move away from the Install DVD to a Live DVD that has more relevant applications and content". We didn't had any SIG for creating Live DVD and Live DVD spin. So I have started the same. The main motive of the SIG will be to roll out one live DVD per fedora release which will have all the packages of live cd and other packages as suggested by the community. For this to be a success, community support is very much required. Interested contributors please join the SIG at https://fedoraproject.org/wiki/SIGs/LiveDVD . Any kind of suggestions or pointers are most welcome.
How would this be different from each LiveCD group just targeting a DVD size and changing their spin appropriately?
Bill
On Mon, Sep 14, 2009 at 9:59 PM, Bill Nottingham notting@redhat.com wrote:
How would this be different from each LiveCD group just targeting a DVD size and changing their spin appropriately?
Actually instead of increasing the size and getting a cluttered install, I am planning to include an internal repository. After installation end user will get the normal live cd stuff and an inbuilt repo which can be used to install packages as per the need. It will reduce the need of internet and will also increase the package installation speed.
Aditya Patawari (aditya@adityapatawari.com) said:
How would this be different from each LiveCD group just targeting a DVD size and changing their spin appropriately?
Actually instead of increasing the size and getting a cluttered install, I am planning to include an internal repository. After installation end user will get the normal live cd stuff and an inbuilt repo which can be used to install packages as per the need. It will reduce the need of internet and will also increase the package installation speed.
... how is that significantly different than what we have now?
Now:
- user downloads DVD iso - user picks from arbitrary set of software - additional software can be selected from network - user installs
New: - user downloads DVD live iso - user partitions, has to include space for all other software on DVD (!) - user installs - user reboots - user can pick from arbitary set of software to add on - additional software can be selected from network
How is this better?
Bill
On Mon, Sep 14, 2009 at 6:03 PM, Bill Nottingham notting@redhat.com wrote:
New:
- user downloads DVD live iso
- user partitions, has to include space for all other software on DVD (!)
- user installs
- user reboots
- user can pick from arbitary set of software to add on
- additional software can be selected from network
Because in the future we will we have a better UI than the current Add/Remove applications for installing desktop software at least, and this way Anaconda doesn't need to maintain a package selection UI.
Colin Walters (walters@verbum.org) said:
New:
- user downloads DVD live iso
- user partitions, has to include space for all other software on DVD (!)
- user installs
- user reboots
- user can pick from arbitary set of software to add on
- additional software can be selected from network
Because in the future we will we have a better UI than the current Add/Remove applications for installing desktop software at least, and this way Anaconda doesn't need to maintain a package selection UI.
We've been describing that future for a while. In the meantime, having to actually install uninstalled versions of random software seems inefficient.
Bill
On Mon, Sep 14, 2009 at 6:08 PM, Bill Nottingham notting@redhat.com wrote:
We've been describing that future for a while. In the meantime, having to actually install uninstalled versions of random software seems inefficient.
Well, there are a few other virtues to having a larger image, namely:
* Can use web browser to find out more information about applications (and in general, use other live tools) * De-duplicates the install path, allowing us to focus on streamlining one single path
Colin Walters (walters@verbum.org) said:
- De-duplicates the install path, allowing us to focus on streamlining
one single path
Given the requirements for server installs (kickstart, etc.) I don't know that you can ever go to live-only (unless you really *shrink* the live image.)
Bill
On Mon, Sep 14, 2009 at 6:28 PM, Bill Nottingham notting@redhat.com wrote:
Colin Walters (walters@verbum.org) said:
- De-duplicates the install path, allowing us to focus on streamlining
one single path
Given the requirements for server installs (kickstart, etc.) I don't know that you can ever go to live-only (unless you really *shrink* the live image.)
I'd imagine that running the "live Anaconda" UI from inside the GDM X session wouldn't take significantly more resources than the Anaconda OS after creating an image that doesn't have games, etc.
On Mon, Sep 14, 2009 at 11:33 PM, Bill Nottingham notting@redhat.comwrote:
New:
- user downloads DVD live iso
- user partitions, has to include space for all other software on DVD (!)
- user installs
- user reboots
- user can pick from arbitary set of software to add on
- additional software can be selected from network
How is this better?
I agree that it will take up more space but its a price which most of us
will be ready to pay. Bad Internet connection is more common than smaller hard disks. Also if someone is concern about the disk space so much than he'll be using live cd than dvd. Primarily Live DVD is to help those who do not have internet access or a bad connection.
On Mon, Sep 14, 2009 at 7:20 PM, Aditya Patawari aditya@adityapatawari.com wrote:
On Mon, Sep 14, 2009 at 9:59 PM, Bill Nottingham notting@redhat.com wrote:
How would this be different from each LiveCD group just targeting a DVD size and changing their spin appropriately?
Actually instead of increasing the size and getting a cluttered install, I am planning to include an internal repository. After installation end user will get the normal live cd stuff and an inbuilt repo which can be used to install packages as per the need. It will reduce the need of internet and will also increase the package installation speed.
We should not make the install more complicated buy adding extra questions "do you want to install foo, bar and baz?"
We should just move away from a CD where it makes sense, a spin targeted for slower / older hardware can be CD size limited, but that should not mean that we should live with the artificial CD limit forever.
Also using a DVD does not necessary mean that we must fill a full DL disk, but it will allow us to move above the 700MB limit where it makes sense (adding stuff like OO.org or translations for the KDE spin etc.)
But well I doubt that we will do this anytime soon, even though it makes a lot of sense IMHO.
On Mon, Sep 14, 2009 at 11:33 PM, drago01 drago01@gmail.com wrote:
We should not make the install more complicated buy adding extra questions "do you want to install foo, bar and baz?"
That is the whole point. It won't ask. It's like a local repository. If you need a package just use the Add/Remove UI or yum.
Aditya Patawari (aditya@adityapatawari.com) said:
We should not make the install more complicated buy adding extra questions "do you want to install foo, bar and baz?"
That is the whole point. It won't ask. It's like a local repository. If you need a package just use the Add/Remove UI or yum.
Actually... how does this save you bandwidth in the long run if it's obsolete 3 weeks after release (as many packages are.)
Bill
On Mon, Sep 14, 2009 at 8:29 PM, Bill Nottingham notting@redhat.com wrote:
Aditya Patawari (aditya@adityapatawari.com) said:
We should not make the install more complicated buy adding extra questions "do you want to install foo, bar and baz?"
That is the whole point. It won't ask. It's like a local repository. If you need a package just use the Add/Remove UI or yum.
Actually... how does this save you bandwidth in the long run if it's obsolete 3 weeks after release (as many packages are.)
deltarpms
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