On Sun, Feb 07, 2010 at 11:41:20AM -0500, Máirín Duffy wrote:
On Fri, 2010-02-05 at 10:28 +0100, Valent Turkovic wrote:
http://arstechnica.com/open-source/reviews/2010/02/hands-on-new-single-windo...
Can't wait to get my hands on single-windows GIMP!
I want that so bad!
I do think the example photo in the screenshots is in poor taste, though. :)
I guess it would depend on whether people in the picture worked on the new single window mode of GIMP. If so, good on them! If not, shame on the editors for creating that impression.
On Mon, 2010-02-08 at 16:16 -0500, Paul W. Frields wrote:
I guess it would depend on whether people in the picture worked on the new single window mode of GIMP. If so, good on them! If not, shame on the editors for creating that impression.
From the name and the resolution, it looks like it's just a picture Ars
happened to have on the test system. Not so unusual they'd have pictures from an F/OSS event on their F/OSS test system, really. Remember they're a general tech news site, nothing F/OSS-specific, I think we shouldn't presume any intent to create any particular impression...
Hey dudes,
On Mon, Feb 8, 2010 at 4:16 PM, Paul W. Frields stickster@gmail.com wrote:
On Sun, Feb 07, 2010 at 11:41:20AM -0500, Máirín Duffy wrote:
On Fri, 2010-02-05 at 10:28 +0100, Valent Turkovic wrote:
http://arstechnica.com/open-source/reviews/2010/02/hands-on-new-single-windo...
Can't wait to get my hands on single-windows GIMP!
I want that so bad!
I do think the example photo in the screenshots is in poor taste, though. :)
I guess it would depend on whether people in the picture worked on the new single window mode of GIMP. If so, good on them! If not, shame on the editors for creating that impression.
I'm assuming we're talking about the Ubuntu group shots.
I don't think there is a conspiracy. Probably more like this: Ryan Paul (segphault) wrote the review. He also works on Gwibber. Gwibber is hosted in launchpad. He likely been to a number of UDSs. This photo is probably from one of those. Gwibber seems to be a key feature of the upcoming Lucid release. He's probably also a big Ubuntu fan - like most geeks.
We should try not to be haters because Ubuntu is doing so well. They are really focusing as a project - that is commendable. And something that so far Fedora has failed to do - actually *refused* to do.
We should also probably consider debranding Fedora hosted so it isn't as distasteful to people looking for a sourceforge alternative.
This is all well within reach folks. Just have to make the right choices. :)
Jon
William Jon McCann said the following on 02/10/2010
We should try not to be haters because Ubuntu is doing so well. They are really focusing as a project - that is commendable. And something that so far Fedora has failed to do - actually *refused* to do.
We should also probably consider debranding Fedora hosted so it isn't as distasteful to people looking for a sourceforge alternative.
This is all well within reach folks. Just have to make the right choices. :)
Well put!
Any idea on how do we help Fedora to *make some choices* and focus?
It seems to me that is where we are most stuck.
It seems that people are either critical of "choices being made for them" or too afraid of wrong choices being made by others. That puts the people in leadership in a "loose loose" situation.
John
On Wed, 10 Feb 2010, John Poelstra wrote:
William Jon McCann said the following on 02/10/2010
We should try not to be haters because Ubuntu is doing so well. They are really focusing as a project - that is commendable. And something that so far Fedora has failed to do - actually *refused* to do.
We should also probably consider debranding Fedora hosted so it isn't as distasteful to people looking for a sourceforge alternative.
This is all well within reach folks. Just have to make the right choices. :)
Well put!
Any idea on how do we help Fedora to *make some choices* and focus?
It seems to me that is where we are most stuck.
It seems that people are either critical of "choices being made for them" or too afraid of wrong choices being made by others. That puts the people in leadership in a "loose loose" situation.
And other folks do not like the set of choices this list would want to make.
That is the problem. Making choices driven from the desktop list alienates a good number of our core contributors.
If you lose them then good luck making the infrastructure function.
-sv
On Wed, 2010-02-10 at 13:14 -0500, Seth Vidal wrote:
On Wed, 10 Feb 2010, John Poelstra wrote:
William Jon McCann said the following on 02/10/2010
We should try not to be haters because Ubuntu is doing so well. They are really focusing as a project - that is commendable. And something that so far Fedora has failed to do - actually *refused* to do.
We should also probably consider debranding Fedora hosted so it isn't as distasteful to people looking for a sourceforge alternative.
This is all well within reach folks. Just have to make the right choices. :)
Well put!
Any idea on how do we help Fedora to *make some choices* and focus?
It seems to me that is where we are most stuck.
It seems that people are either critical of "choices being made for them" or too afraid of wrong choices being made by others. That puts the people in leadership in a "loose loose" situation.
And other folks do not like the set of choices this list would want to make.
That is the problem. Making choices driven from the desktop list alienates a good number of our core contributors.
If you lose them then good luck making the infrastructure function.
I think you're missing the major point.
Design should exist without boundaries of the existing, and disregard opinion of the masses.
I'd point you to that article: http://w.koreatimes.com/article/576354 (originally in the NY Times)
And if you have access to the BBC iPlayer, you should watch the latest "Newswipe", which has a portion about political elitism, taking Roy Jenkins as an example of increasing liberties[1].
Design might be elitist, but it needs to be elitist (and therefore, unpopular) if there is any chance of it being useful.
Otherwise we're stuck in with the same old paradigm.
[1]: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Roy_Jenkins#In_government
-sv
On Thu, 11 Feb 2010, Bastien Nocera wrote:
I think you're missing the major point.
Design should exist without boundaries of the existing, and disregard opinion of the masses. I'd point you to that article: http://w.koreatimes.com/article/576354 (originally in the NY Times)
And if you have access to the BBC iPlayer, you should watch the latest "Newswipe", which has a portion about political elitism, taking Roy Jenkins as an example of increasing liberties[1].
Design might be elitist, but it needs to be elitist (and therefore, unpopular) if there is any chance of it being useful.
Otherwise we're stuck in with the same old paradigm.
Is this how you think of yourself? As the design Elite?
Afaict nothing done on the linux desktop in the last 10 yrs has been anything other than a copy of whatever windows and osx did before.
If OSX is the original then the linux desktop is the cheap knockoff churned out in a sweatshop in god-for-saken-nowhere.
Now, to be fair - I use the linux desktop b/c it's the FREE SOFTWARE knockoff - and the FREE SOFTWARE is what matters to me. But I don't have any illusion that the linux desktop is innovative or elite.
I stopped having that illusion a long time ago.
But I'm just a simpleton, clearly not elite, what would I know?
-sv
ps: look at the hisory of those people who ignored the masses. Look at how many of them ended under the bootheel of history. Change happens through evolution, revolutions just cause sufferring.
Seth Vidal (skvidal@fedoraproject.org) said:
Is this how you think of yourself? As the design Elite?
Afaict nothing done on the linux desktop in the last 10 yrs has been anything other than a copy of whatever windows and osx did before.
gnome-shell certainly doesn't look like Windows or Mac to me. Neither does Moblin, for that matter. (Neither did the original specs of Enlightenment, and that was a long time ago.)
But I'm just a simpleton, clearly not elite, what would I know?
-sv
ps: look at the hisory of those people who ignored the masses. Look at how many of them ended under the bootheel of history. Change happens through evolution, revolutions just cause sufferring.
Woohoo, we've stumbled into a Tea Party meeting. Fun. Can we *all* stop sniping at each other pointlessly and get back to useful work?
Bill
On Thu, 11 Feb 2010, Bill Nottingham wrote:
Afaict nothing done on the linux desktop in the last 10 yrs has been anything other than a copy of whatever windows and osx did before.
gnome-shell certainly doesn't look like Windows or Mac to me. Neither does Moblin, for that matter. (Neither did the original specs of Enlightenment, and that was a long time ago.)
Gnome shell is your example? Have you used a macbook recently?
And boy enlightenment really took off...
Moblin might be a fair point, I've not used it.
-sv
Seth Vidal (skvidal@fedoraproject.org) said:
Afaict nothing done on the linux desktop in the last 10 yrs has been anything other than a copy of whatever windows and osx did before.
gnome-shell certainly doesn't look like Windows or Mac to me. Neither does Moblin, for that matter. (Neither did the original specs of Enlightenment, and that was a long time ago.)
Gnome shell is your example? Have you used a macbook recently?
The last time I used it Exposé wasn't there - that obviously shows similarities. But if it was truly following OSX, I would think there'd be more of a dock, less of a focus on workspaces as top level objects, less use of the contextual menu for picking applications.)
But, meh. It's certainly trying something *new* over just maintaining the old. And I want to be willing to try and fail rather than just muddle along - and those that try need to be able to make choices. I would hope it's a given point that you can't do the *best* design for any one particular usage case without making choices at some point. If we fail to make any choices, we'll be equally mediocre at everything. (While that may be a goal, it's not my goal.) So we need a framework for people to be able to make those choices.
At our current level of engagement, volunteers, and resources, I don't know that we can handle the sort of combinatorial explosion if all groups make separate choices which all need to be supported. That's why I feel it may be healthy to make some choices as a whole project. If we can find a way to make choices at a lower level while still keeping the project maintainable, that's great too.
We already do, for the most part, make choices at a product-wide level. We've chosen that we don't want to support those who want a 3 (or 5, or 7) year lifespan for the product. We've chosen that we're not basing the world on zypper, or apt. We've implicitly chosen from a desktop target audience that nobody is targeting those who want to run TWM and xdm.
Bill
Hey John,
On Wed, Feb 10, 2010 at 1:09 PM, John Poelstra poelstra@redhat.com wrote:
William Jon McCann said the following on 02/10/2010
We should try not to be haters because Ubuntu is doing so well. They are really focusing as a project - that is commendable. And something that so far Fedora has failed to do - actually *refused* to do.
We should also probably consider debranding Fedora hosted so it isn't as distasteful to people looking for a sourceforge alternative.
This is all well within reach folks. Just have to make the right choices. :)
Well put!
Any idea on how do we help Fedora to *make some choices* and focus?
It seems to me that is where we are most stuck.
It seems that people are either critical of "choices being made for them" or too afraid of wrong choices being made by others. That puts the people in leadership in a "loose loose" situation.
Yup, I know. It isn't easy. There is a simple glib answer and it is something like "it takes some guts." But then the more complete and compelling answer is unfortunately also much more complicated. We should chat sometime. Do you ever come to Westford?
There are dozens of decisions made or that should be made every day as we think about what experiences we want to provide. Every day I have a list of literally dozens of things that I could use help with as we try to design the experience of using Fedora. I'd really love to be able to get help from the Project for these things. Sadly, when we ask, more often than not we get responses of the form - "that's fine if Desktop wants that but Fedora is something else."
Making decisions is hard. We know this. Any decision has the potential to fail - this is true. However, failing to make decisions (out of fear) will simply guarantee failure or even worse - render you completely irrelevant. For now, the world trusts us and looks to us to lead. They expect it and it is our job. This trust is a great responsibility that none of us take lightly. But it won't last forever.
It is really unfortunate that at the same time so many of us are leaders in the larger open source world - we have failed to gain the support of our own project. I think there is plenty of blame to go around - on all sides - including mine. It is a heartbreaking reality.
I don't really understand what all the fuss is about, to be honest. I look around and I don't really see that many incompatible points of view. Not that many truly compelling alternative visions. Sure, lots of bickering and sniping and personality conflicts and grudges. Far too much of that. But what else, once you look past that?
Do we really disagree that Fedora can and should be the best general purpose Operating System (not distro) in the world? At the heart of it I think we all agree on that. Do we need a target audience for that? Honestly, I doubt it. Does this mean we have to cater to a certain type of person? Of course not. An Operating System is one of the most easily adaptable technologies ever developed. That isn't the challenge.
The real challenge we face is: can we be relevant? Can we prove that desktop Linux has legs beyond techno geeks, outside the niche, outside the server room? I'll tell you right now, the answer is no - unless we can all work together. And I think it is time we start.
Jon
On Wed, Feb 10, 2010 at 08:12:17PM -0500, William Jon McCann wrote:
Do we really disagree that Fedora can and should be the best general purpose Operating System (not distro) in the world? At the heart of it I think we all agree on that.
Yes, we really do disagree on Operating System vs distro. I told you this at FUDCon Toronto.
-Toshio
desktop@lists.fedoraproject.org
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Adam Williamson -
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Paul W. Frields -
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Toshio Kuratomi -
William Jon McCann