Hi all,
kparal pointed out on IRC today that in F22, gnome-shell's shutdown dialog has the "Install pending updates" check box always checked. I knew that we hadn't deliberately changed the default, so I did some digging.
It turned out to be a fallout from https://github.com/hughsie/PackageKit/commit/0a7b6d67b98cd06cabe03176c02db83... that regressed the PackageKit DBus API that gnome-shell uses, basically flipping the default from "do not install updates by default" to "reboot and install updates".
sgallagh asked me to seek guidance on the list here: Is it something that we should fix before the F22 release and flip the default back so that when someone hurriedly clicks through the shut down dialog, they don't accidentally go into a 15-minute offline update applying mode?
On Thu, May 14, 2015 at 03:43:19PM +0200, Kalev Lember wrote:
sgallagh asked me to seek guidance on the list here: Is it something that we should fix before the F22 release and flip the default back so that when someone hurriedly clicks through the shut down dialog, they don't accidentally go into a 15-minute offline update applying mode?
I guess I have mixed feelings; on the one hand, that's a huge annoyance if you didn't mean it. On the other hand, why else would you reboot a system, these days?
On Thu, May 14, 2015 at 3:46 PM, Matthew Miller mattdm@fedoraproject.org wrote:
On Thu, May 14, 2015 at 03:43:19PM +0200, Kalev Lember wrote:
sgallagh asked me to seek guidance on the list here: Is it something that we should fix before the F22 release and flip the default back so that when someone hurriedly clicks through the shut down dialog, they don't accidentally go into a 15-minute offline update applying mode?
I guess I have mixed feelings; on the one hand, that's a huge annoyance if you didn't mean it. On the other hand, why else would you reboot a system, these days?
To boot into the other installed OS? To change a firmware setting? Because something is misbehaving?
On Thu, May 14, 2015 at 03:50:23PM +0200, drago01 wrote:
I guess I have mixed feelings; on the one hand, that's a huge annoyance if you didn't mean it. On the other hand, why else would you reboot a system, these days?
To boot into the other installed OS?
Oh yeah. That's a pretty big one still. :)
To change a firmware setting? Because something is misbehaving?
These, though, I think are more rare and if it weren't for the other, I'd say just uncheck the box in these cases. But I can see rebooting to switch OS as compellingly annoying enough alone.
On Thu, 2015-05-14 at 10:18 -0400, Matthew Miller wrote:
These, though, I think are more rare and if it weren't for the other, I'd say just uncheck the box in these cases. But I can see rebooting to switch OS as compellingly annoying enough alone.
The boot menu appears before the update starts, so you can switch to the other OS straight away if you make this mistake, but will have to sit for the update next time you attempt to boot Fedora.
IMO updating should be the default, though. It's what we want to encourage you to do. Not updating is discouraged, so you should need to click once for the discouraged behavior.
Michael
On Thu, 14 May 2015 10:13:54 -0500 Michael Catanzaro mcatanzaro@gnome.org wrote:
On Thu, 2015-05-14 at 10:18 -0400, Matthew Miller wrote:
These, though, I think are more rare and if it weren't for the other, I'd say just uncheck the box in these cases. But I can see rebooting to switch OS as compellingly annoying enough alone.
The boot menu appears before the update starts, so you can switch to the other OS straight away if you make this mistake, but will have to sit for the update next time you attempt to boot Fedora.
IMO updating should be the default, though. It's what we want to encourage you to do. Not updating is discouraged, so you should need to click once for the discouraged behavior.
Additionally, for people who apply their updates online, this sometimes results in gnome-software downloading and getting a backup set in the background, they download and update again, they reboot and off-line updates tries to apply but finds that things are already updated, and you get an error on the next boot about things already updated. :)
Of course on-line updaters are perhaps the exception here, and this can be worked around by simply disabling off-line via the gesettings setting, but thought I would point it out.
kevin
On 05/14/2015 05:19 PM, Kevin Fenzi wrote:
Additionally, for people who apply their updates online, this sometimes results in gnome-software downloading and getting a backup set in the background, they download and update again, they reboot and off-line updates tries to apply but finds that things are already updated, and you get an error on the next boot about things already updated. :)
This is fixed by https://admin.fedoraproject.org/updates/libhif-0.1.8-8.fc22
On 05/14/2015 05:21 PM, Kalev Lember wrote:
On 05/14/2015 05:19 PM, Kevin Fenzi wrote:
Additionally, for people who apply their updates online, this sometimes results in gnome-software downloading and getting a backup set in the background, they download and update again, they reboot and off-line updates tries to apply but finds that things are already updated, and you get an error on the next boot about things already updated. :)
This is fixed by https://admin.fedoraproject.org/updates/libhif-0.1.8-8.fc22
Err, sorry, https://admin.fedoraproject.org/updates/libhif-0.2.0-3.fc22 is the fix.
On Thu, May 14, 2015 at 5:19 PM, Kevin Fenzi kevin@scrye.com wrote:
On Thu, 14 May 2015 10:13:54 -0500 Michael Catanzaro mcatanzaro@gnome.org wrote:
On Thu, 2015-05-14 at 10:18 -0400, Matthew Miller wrote:
These, though, I think are more rare and if it weren't for the other, I'd say just uncheck the box in these cases. But I can see rebooting to switch OS as compellingly annoying enough alone.
The boot menu appears before the update starts, so you can switch to the other OS straight away if you make this mistake, but will have to sit for the update next time you attempt to boot Fedora.
IMO updating should be the default, though. It's what we want to encourage you to do. Not updating is discouraged, so you should need to click once for the discouraged behavior.
Additionally, for people who apply their updates online, this sometimes results in gnome-software downloading and getting a backup set in the background, they download and update again, they reboot and off-line updates tries to apply but finds that things are already updated, and you get an error on the next boot about things already updated. :)
Of course on-line updaters are perhaps the exception here, and this can be worked around by simply disabling off-line via the gesettings setting, but thought I would point it out.
Depends on how you apply them ... you could/should simply use "pkcon update" it will reuse the metadata and downloads done in the background but apply them straight away.
I am really puzzled what Fedora is upto. Encouraging automatic updates by default like Microsoft. So if this is going to be packed in the Kernel without an option, then I do not have a word to say...
Such an unauthorised offline or live updates I have brought up in this forum with subject 'Fedora 22 update security'.
These days I shutdown my computer everyday to save power and just changing to switching to another OS cannot be the only reason for one to shutdown or reboot their computer.
On Thu, 2015-05-14 at 10:13 -0500, Michael Catanzaro wrote:
On Thu, 2015-05-14 at 10:18 -0400, Matthew Miller wrote:
These, though, I think are more rare and if it weren't for the other, I'd say just uncheck the box in these cases. But I can see rebooting to switch OS as compellingly annoying enough alone.
The boot menu appears before the update starts, so you can switch to the other OS straight away if you make this mistake, but will have to sit for the update next time you attempt to boot Fedora.
IMO updating should be the default, though. It's what we want to encourage you to do. Not updating is discouraged, so you should need to click once for the discouraged behavior.
Michael
On Thu, May 14, 2015 at 9:19 AM, Nethaji ucbtnth@live.ucl.ac.uk wrote:
I am really puzzled what Fedora is upto. Encouraging automatic updates by default like Microsoft. So if this is going to be packed in the Kernel without an option, then I do not have a word to say...
Then don't, especially if you're going to resort to using logical fallacies like this. Attack the action you don't like directly rather than drag in some company whose behavior you disapprove of in a "guilt by association" technique.
I have tried to discuss about this. All I wanted was automatic update should not be done by standard user, which is at the moment is happening.
From: desktop-bounces@lists.fedoraproject.org desktop-bounces@lists.fedoraproject.org on behalf of Chris Murphy lists@colorremedies.com Sent: 14 May 2015 19:23 To: Discussions about development for the Fedora desktop Subject: Re: should we always install updates by default at each shut down?
On Thu, May 14, 2015 at 9:19 AM, Nethaji <ucbtnth@live.ucl.ac.ukmailto:ucbtnth@live.ucl.ac.uk> wrote: I am really puzzled what Fedora is upto. Encouraging automatic updates by default like Microsoft. So if this is going to be packed in the Kernel without an option, then I do not have a word to say...
Then don't, especially if you're going to resort to using logical fallacies like this. Attack the action you don't like directly rather than drag in some company whose behavior you disapprove of in a "guilt by association" technique.
-- Chris Murphy
----- Original Message -----
On Thu, May 14, 2015 at 03:43:19PM +0200, Kalev Lember wrote:
sgallagh asked me to seek guidance on the list here: Is it something that we should fix before the F22 release and flip the default back so that when someone hurriedly clicks through the shut down dialog, they don't accidentally go into a 15-minute offline update applying mode?
I guess I have mixed feelings; on the one hand, that's a huge annoyance if you didn't mean it. On the other hand, why else would you reboot a system, these days?
Suspend/resume is still not at 100%. In that case, with fast startup, shutdown can serve as a solution. But not, if you install updates... The question is how many people do it this way (I know even people who even has never tried suspend/resume)...
R.
-- Matthew Miller mattdm@fedoraproject.org Fedora Project Leader -- desktop mailing list desktop@lists.fedoraproject.org https://admin.fedoraproject.org/mailman/listinfo/desktop
On Thu, May 14, 2015 at 3:51 PM, Jaroslav Reznik jreznik@redhat.com wrote:
----- Original Message -----
On Thu, May 14, 2015 at 03:43:19PM +0200, Kalev Lember wrote:
sgallagh asked me to seek guidance on the list here: Is it something that we should fix before the F22 release and flip the default back so that when someone hurriedly clicks through the shut down dialog, they don't accidentally go into a 15-minute offline update applying mode?
I guess I have mixed feelings; on the one hand, that's a huge annoyance if you didn't mean it. On the other hand, why else would you reboot a system, these days?
Suspend/resume is still not at 100%. In that case, with fast startup, shutdown can serve as a solution.
shutdown != reboot
On 14/05/15, Matthew Miller wrote:
On Thu, May 14, 2015 at 03:43:19PM +0200, Kalev Lember wrote:
sgallagh asked me to seek guidance on the list here: Is it something that we should fix before the F22 release and flip the default back so that when someone hurriedly clicks through the shut down dialog, they don't accidentally go into a 15-minute offline update applying mode?
I guess I have mixed feelings; on the one hand, that's a huge annoyance if you didn't mean it. On the other hand, why else would you reboot a system, these days?
For a country like India, where everyone shutsdown their boxes at the end of the day. We also do not have enough bandwidth to download all updates everyday.
Kushal
On the other hand, why else would you reboot a system, these days?
Uhhhhhh.....
The days where desktop Linux never needs rebooted never really existed (its not been getting worse or better really... it's been holding steady at 'better than windows, but still at least weekly'
I reboot as little as possible, but it's still randomly necessary to get Wifi back, get the GPU back, get the backlight back, get eSATA back, get the keyboard back, get Pulse/ALSA to start working again, etc....
That and I'm often rebooting at a point of trying desperately to get something to work under a deadline. Like standing in front of an audience wondering why I have mouse but no keyboard input after opening the laptop lid, etc. The first time I saw 'reboot and install updates' pop up my heart dropped (as I did not even realize I could reboot without installing updates). It's the number one reason I wiped Windows 7 after trying it for a few weeks. It insists on taking an hour to install updates at the worst possible times.
Monty
On Thu, May 14, 2015 at 7:43 AM, Kalev Lember kalevlember@gmail.com wrote:
sgallagh asked me to seek guidance on the list here: Is it something that we should fix before the F22 release and flip the default back so that when someone hurriedly clicks through the shut down dialog, they don't accidentally go into a 15-minute offline update applying mode?
Yes, please fix it. If anything I'd like to see a 15 minute delay before
PackageKit starts downloading a Gig of data. There used to be a way to disable checking (and downloading) updates, but that's MIA these days.
On Thu, 2015-05-14 at 08:48 -0600, Chris Murphy wrote:
On Thu, May 14, 2015 at 7:43 AM, Kalev Lember kalevlember@gmail.com wrote:
sgallagh asked me to seek guidance on the list here: Is it something that we should fix before the F22 release and flip the default back so that when someone hurriedly clicks through the shut down dialog, they don't accidentally go into a 15-minute offline update applying mode?
Yes, please fix it. If anything I'd like to see a 15 minute delay before PackageKit starts downloading a Gig of data. There used to be a way to disable checking (and downloading) updates, but that's MIA these days.
Nothing gets downloaded. We only offer an offline update if all the data is already on your system.
On Thu, 2015-05-14 at 10:53 -0400, Matthias Clasen wrote:
On Thu, 2015-05-14 at 08:48 -0600, Chris Murphy wrote:
On Thu, May 14, 2015 at 7:43 AM, Kalev Lember < kalevlember@gmail.com> wrote:
sgallagh asked me to seek guidance on the list here: Is it something that we should fix before the F22 release and flip the default back so that when someone hurriedly clicks through the shut down dialog, they don't accidentally go into a 15-minute offline update applying mode?
Yes, please fix it. If anything I'd like to see a 15 minute delay before PackageKit starts downloading a Gig of data. There used to be a way to disable checking (and downloading) updates, but that's MIA
these days.
Nothing gets downloaded. We only offer an offline update if all the data is already on your system.
Nothing gets downloaded *at shutdown*. I think he's saying that he wants to be able to disable the background download and only do on -demand updates. I thought this used to be an option in GNOME Software, but I can't find it on F22.
On Thu, May 14, 2015 at 8:57 AM, Stephen Gallagher sgallagh@redhat.com wrote:
On Thu, 2015-05-14 at 10:53 -0400, Matthias Clasen wrote:
Nothing gets downloaded. We only offer an offline update if all the data is already on your system.
Nothing gets downloaded *at shutdown*. I think he's saying that he wants to be able to disable the background download and only do on -demand updates. I thought this used to be an option in GNOME Software, but I can't find it on F22.
That's exactly what I mean. Sometimes I just need a quick and dirty new VM, but don't want it hogging my Internet connection for updates I won't ever apply.
On 05/14/2015 04:57 PM, Stephen Gallagher wrote:
Nothing gets downloaded *at shutdown*. I think he's saying that he wants to be able to disable the background download and only do on -demand updates. I thought this used to be an option in GNOME Software, but I can't find it on F22.
It's not exposed in the UI, but it can be disabled with a super-secret gsettings option:
$ gsettings set org.gnome.software download-updates false
... and back to the default:
$ gsettings reset org.gnome.software download-updates
On Thu, May 14, 2015 at 05:04:08PM +0200, Kalev Lember wrote:
It's not exposed in the UI, but it can be disabled with a super-secret gsettings option: $ gsettings set org.gnome.software download-updates false ... and back to the default: $ gsettings reset org.gnome.software download-updates
How does this work with multi-user systems?
On 05/14/2015 05:26 PM, Matthew Miller wrote:
On Thu, May 14, 2015 at 05:04:08PM +0200, Kalev Lember wrote:
It's not exposed in the UI, but it can be disabled with a super-secret gsettings option: $ gsettings set org.gnome.software download-updates false ... and back to the default: $ gsettings reset org.gnome.software download-updates
How does this work with multi-user systems?
Good question. The setting above was never really designed for end users -- it was added to be able to disable background downloads on the Fedora Workstation live install image. But I'll admit it has turned out to be useful for users too :)
As for multi user systems: this setting is per user, but it's possible to change the default for the whole system. This is explained in https://wiki.gnome.org/Projects/dconf/SystemAdministrators
On Thu, May 14, 2015 at 05:39:41PM +0200, Kalev Lember wrote:
As for multi user systems: this setting is per user, but it's possible to change the default for the whole system. This is explained in https://wiki.gnome.org/Projects/dconf/SystemAdministrators
Cool, thanks. (I'm going to change my home system default to "off", and then on for my user only.)
On Thu, 2015-05-14 at 11:26 -0400, Matthew Miller wrote:
On Thu, May 14, 2015 at 05:04:08PM +0200, Kalev Lember wrote:
It's not exposed in the UI, but it can be disabled with a super-secret gsettings option: $ gsettings set org.gnome.software download-updates false ... and back to the default: $ gsettings reset org.gnome.software download-updates
How does this work with multi-user systems?
The monitoring for new updates to download is running in the user session - if you want to put a system-wide block on downloads, you can use the dconf mechanisms for lockdown to enforce the value of that setting.
On Thu, May 14, 2015 at 10:57:46AM -0400, Stephen Gallagher wrote:
Nothing gets downloaded *at shutdown*. I think he's saying that he wants to be able to disable the background download and only do on -demand updates. I thought this used to be an option in GNOME Software, but I can't find it on F22.
Drifting off topic... I'd really like to be able to limit the networks that this happens on. Specifically, I _very much_ don't want it to happen when I'm tethered to my cell phone, where data is limited and expensive. Or at an airport or conference, where bandwidth is terrible. And while it's mostly not _my_ problem, it'd be polite to not do it at coffee shops and etc.
That'd be https://bugzilla.redhat.com/show_bug.cgi?id=1112230, plus getting support for that in Software.
On Thu, 2015-05-14 at 11:26 -0400, Matthew Miller wrote:
On Thu, May 14, 2015 at 10:57:46AM -0400, Stephen Gallagher wrote:
Nothing gets downloaded *at shutdown*. I think he's saying that he wants to be able to disable the background download and only do on -demand updates. I thought this used to be an option in GNOME Software, but I can't find it on F22.
Drifting off topic... I'd really like to be able to limit the networks that this happens on. Specifically, I _very much_ don't want it to happen when I'm tethered to my cell phone, where data is limited and expensive. Or at an airport or conference, where bandwidth is terrible. And while it's mostly not _my_ problem, it'd be polite to not do it at coffee shops and etc.
That'd be https://bugzilla.redhat.com/show_bug.cgi?id=1112230, plus getting support for that in Software.
Yes, support for identifying 'expensive' network connections its working its way through the stack, I recently saw it land in NetworkManager.
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