Hi. Does the "Fedora Workstation" vision means we can disable (or even remove) all enterprise stuff (nfs, iscsi, and lots of other pointless services for desktops) by default in our product?
Can we, for example, ask the Anacoda team to make dependencies on enterprise-class storage optional, thus enabling us to not ship it by default on the workstation product?
On Wed, Nov 6, 2013 at 10:28 AM, Elad Alfassa elad@fedoraproject.org wrote:
Hi. Does the "Fedora Workstation" vision means we can disable (or even remove) all enterprise stuff (nfs, iscsi, and lots of other pointless services for desktops) by default in our product?
It could. I don't think we're quite to that level of detail yet though.
Can we, for example, ask the Anacoda team to make dependencies on enterprise-class storage optional, thus enabling us to not ship it by default on the workstation product?
I doubt this is really specific to anaconda. I don't think they want to create a separate installer for all the products and they are going to need those dependencies on the install media to accomplish installs for other products. That doesn't mean the enterprise-class packages need to be _installed_ on a Workstation install though.
josh
On Wed, Nov 6, 2013 at 5:36 PM, Josh Boyer jwboyer@fedoraproject.orgwrote:
On Wed, Nov 6, 2013 at 10:28 AM, Elad Alfassa elad@fedoraproject.org wrote:
Hi. Does the "Fedora Workstation" vision means we can disable (or even
remove)
all enterprise stuff (nfs, iscsi, and lots of other pointless services
for
desktops) by default in our product?
It could. I don't think we're quite to that level of detail yet though.
Can we, for example, ask the Anacoda team to make dependencies on enterprise-class storage optional, thus enabling us to not ship it by default on the workstation product?
I doubt this is really specific to anaconda. I don't think they want to create a separate installer for all the products and they are going to need those dependencies on the install media to accomplish installs for other products.
My idea was to conditionally load those libraries. If they are not present, disable enterprise storage support in the UI. Sounds not too complicated.
That doesn't mean the enterprise-class packages need to be _installed_ on a Workstation install though.
It does, at least if we continue do live installs the way we do them now (rsync)
josh
desktop mailing list desktop@lists.fedoraproject.org https://admin.fedoraproject.org/mailman/listinfo/desktop
On Wed, Nov 6, 2013 at 10:42 AM, Elad Alfassa elad@fedoraproject.org wrote:
On Wed, Nov 6, 2013 at 5:36 PM, Josh Boyer jwboyer@fedoraproject.org wrote:
On Wed, Nov 6, 2013 at 10:28 AM, Elad Alfassa elad@fedoraproject.org wrote:
Hi. Does the "Fedora Workstation" vision means we can disable (or even remove) all enterprise stuff (nfs, iscsi, and lots of other pointless services for desktops) by default in our product?
It could. I don't think we're quite to that level of detail yet though.
Can we, for example, ask the Anacoda team to make dependencies on enterprise-class storage optional, thus enabling us to not ship it by default on the workstation product?
I doubt this is really specific to anaconda. I don't think they want to create a separate installer for all the products and they are going to need those dependencies on the install media to accomplish installs for other products.
My idea was to conditionally load those libraries. If they are not present, disable enterprise storage support in the UI. Sounds not too complicated.
Like everything else involved with the 3 product approach, it's going to depend on how much it takes to do something and the resources we have to do it. If people working on Workstation think that's important, it would probably be better to send patches to anaconda to do it. This is where the community around the product can really step up.
josh
----- Original Message -----
From: "Josh Boyer" jwboyer@fedoraproject.org To: "Discussions about development for the Fedora desktop" desktop@lists.fedoraproject.org Sent: Wednesday, November 6, 2013 10:45:31 AM Subject: Re: Default Services in the Fedora Workstation
On Wed, Nov 6, 2013 at 10:42 AM, Elad Alfassa elad@fedoraproject.org wrote:
On Wed, Nov 6, 2013 at 5:36 PM, Josh Boyer jwboyer@fedoraproject.org wrote:
On Wed, Nov 6, 2013 at 10:28 AM, Elad Alfassa elad@fedoraproject.org wrote:
Hi. Does the "Fedora Workstation" vision means we can disable (or even remove) all enterprise stuff (nfs, iscsi, and lots of other pointless services for desktops) by default in our product?
It could. I don't think we're quite to that level of detail yet though.
Can we, for example, ask the Anacoda team to make dependencies on enterprise-class storage optional, thus enabling us to not ship it by default on the workstation product?
I doubt this is really specific to anaconda. I don't think they want to create a separate installer for all the products and they are going to need those dependencies on the install media to accomplish installs for other products.
As Josh says I think it will be a resource issue and we will need to figure things out a bit as we go. I do expect us to have different install media for each product so hopefully that would make things easier and hopefully we can work on making the installer flexible enough to not display items we don't need for the workstation easily enough.
My idea was to conditionally load those libraries. If they are not present, disable enterprise storage support in the UI. Sounds not too complicated.
Like everything else involved with the 3 product approach, it's going to depend on how much it takes to do something and the resources we have to do it. If people working on Workstation think that's important, it would probably be better to send patches to anaconda to do it. This is where the community around the product can really step up.
On Wed, Nov 06, 2013 at 10:50:12AM -0500, Christian Schaller wrote:
As Josh says I think it will be a resource issue and we will need to figure things out a bit as we go. I do expect us to have different install media for each product so hopefully that would make things easier and hopefully we can work on making the installer flexible enough to not display items we don't need for the workstation easily enough.
In the cloud, we don't have "media". :)
Or, in seriousness: although cloud images may be produced through Anancona, it will be via kickstart scripts, not through the UI. So I don' tthink we're particularly affected here.
On Wed, Nov 6, 2013 at 4:42 PM, Elad Alfassa elad@fedoraproject.org wrote:
On Wed, Nov 6, 2013 at 5:36 PM, Josh Boyer jwboyer@fedoraproject.org wrote:
On Wed, Nov 6, 2013 at 10:28 AM, Elad Alfassa elad@fedoraproject.org wrote:
Hi. Does the "Fedora Workstation" vision means we can disable (or even remove) all enterprise stuff (nfs, iscsi, and lots of other pointless services for desktops) by default in our product?
It could. I don't think we're quite to that level of detail yet though.
Can we, for example, ask the Anacoda team to make dependencies on enterprise-class storage optional, thus enabling us to not ship it by default on the workstation product?
I doubt this is really specific to anaconda. I don't think they want to create a separate installer for all the products and they are going to need those dependencies on the install media to accomplish installs for other products.
My idea was to conditionally load those libraries. If they are not present, disable enterprise storage support in the UI. Sounds not too complicated.
That doesn't mean the enterprise-class packages need to be _installed_ on a Workstation install though.
It does, at least if we continue do live installs the way we do them now (rsync)
Yeah that way we even end up with anaconda on the installed system which makes no sense at all. Maybe we need some postinstall phase to remove such stuff.
On Wed, 2013-11-06 at 22:05 +0100, drago01 wrote:
It does, at least if we continue do live installs the way we do them now (rsync)
Yeah that way we even end up with anaconda on the installed system which makes no sense at all.
anaconda is actually on the installed system for non-live, non-GNOME graphical installs now too, because initial-setup (as opposed to gnome-initial-setup) requires it. Just an FYI.
Also FYI, the semantics of various anaconda 'dependencies':
* If the anaconda package directly depends on another package, then as things stand, that means that package needs to be in the anaconda runtime environment itself for some part of anaconda to work properly. Such packages *may* also be part of the other set (see below), but are not *necessarily*.
* If a package is in the 'anaconda-tools' comps group, that means that it is a package anaconda does not necessarily need in its runtime environment, but which it may add to the set of packages to be deployed on the installed system, depending on the precise configuration of the installation in question.
Packages in 'anaconda-tools' are included on the DVD and on live images. This is the source of the iscsi and fcoe services at least, as iscsi-initiator-utils and fcoe-utils are listed in anaconda-tools. Note that QA has a test for service startup and has filed several bugs for services that should perhaps be disabled or enabled only conditionally, and we've made some progress on this over the last few releases: for instance, iscsi.service was made conditional on some iscsi node actually existing as part of F19:
https://bugzilla.redhat.com/show_bug.cgi?id=951951
Maybe we need some postinstall phase to remove such stuff.
There is a postinstall phase for live images, but it's a pretty ugly hack, and we don't currently use it to remove packages.
On 11/06/2013 10:28 AM, Elad Alfassa wrote:
Can we, for example, ask the Anacoda team to make dependencies on enterprise-class storage optional, thus enabling us to not ship it by default on the workstation product?
FWIW the initial idea behind the design is that the enterprise-class storage widget in the UI could be displayed optionally so for the workstation that widget could be hidden. I don't know if that idea was implemented yet or not but certainly the Anaconda team was supportive of something like that.
I know that doesn't answer whether or not the libraries would be present, but at least the users shouldn't necessarily have to see the user interface bits.
~m
On Wed, 2013-11-06 at 17:28 +0200, Elad Alfassa wrote:
Hi.
Does the "Fedora Workstation" vision means we can disable (or even remove) all enterprise stuff (nfs, iscsi, and lots of other pointless services for desktops) by default in our product?
Can we, for example, ask the Anacoda team to make dependencies on enterprise-class storage optional, thus enabling us to not ship it by default on the workstation product?
You will notice that the PRD does have a 'developer in large organization' use case - and explicitly mentions enterprise accounts as a requirement for that. I would expect that it also requires nfs support, but you are right that we should be able to remove stuff like lldp and other data center technologies.
In any case, a list of services is part of the definition of the workstation product that we are supposed to come up with, so it is a useful topic.
A somewhat related topic that was on my list of things to discuss in the WG is the configuration of these services. A notable sore point here is the firewall configuration - it has to work out of the box for the services that are part of the workstation.
Elad Alfassa (elad@fedoraproject.org) said:
Does the "Fedora Workstation" vision means we can disable (or even remove) all enterprise stuff (nfs, iscsi, and lots of other pointless services for desktops) by default in our product?
Can we, for example, ask the Anacoda team to make dependencies on enterprise-class storage optional, thus enabling us to not ship it by default on the workstation product?
In the installer, it could be hidden, AFAIK. In the installed system, that likely requires changes in the virt stack (as that's what brings most of it in.)
Bill
desktop@lists.fedoraproject.org