Hi, just made a Feature page for GNOME 2.24: https://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Features/GNOME2_24
There are various tasks here, the main change not executed on yet is Empathy, which I've been investigating this week. If you see anything else that needs to be added to that page, please do it.
Hi, just made a Feature page for GNOME 2.24: https://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Features/GNOME2_24
There are various tasks here, the main change not executed on yet is Empathy, which I've been investigating this week. If you see anything else that needs to be added to that page, please do it.
Good idea. I've made some edits to the page. One thing to consider is that empathy requires the whole telepathy stack, which may cause some size issues on the live image. On the other hande, libpurple is huge too, and loosing that may well make up for telepathy.
It is worth pointing out that you need to install telepathy-idle to get IRC support in empathy.
On Wed, 2008-08-06 at 19:52 -0400, Matthias Clasen wrote:
Good idea. I've made some edits to the page. One thing to consider is that empathy requires the whole telepathy stack, which may cause some size issues on the live image. [...]
On my F9/x86_64 install, after doing a 'yum install telepathy* empathy*', the whole of Empathy and the Telepathy stack take up just under 9 MB [1]. Is there really that tight of a squeeze on the CD? :O
On the other hande, libpurple is huge too, and loosing that may well make up for telepathy.
Prior to AOL's transition to XMPP instead of their proprietary IM protocol, libpurple (with Haze) was the only way to get AIM/ICQ support for Telepathy, and even now tends to have better MSN support than Butterfly (or so I've been told). I've so far been unable to get AIM-over-XMPP working - though I've not tried too hard, admittedly. Thus, using Empathy would effectively make it the "UI" for libpurple instead of Pidgin.
It is worth pointing out that you need to install telepathy-idle to get IRC support in empathy.
I've a small list of various packages/connection managers and what protocols they support in Empathy's documentation (also in Fedora's CVS), named "README.ConnectionManagers"; so please feel free to modify that as needed. :)
[1] There's probably a more elegant way, but: $ yum info telepathy* empathy* \ | grep Size \ | cut -d ':' -f 2 \ | awk --assign=SUM=0 '{SUM += $1}; END {print SUM;}'
On Wed, 2008-08-06 at 18:28 -0700, Peter Gordon wrote:
On Wed, 2008-08-06 at 19:52 -0400, Matthias Clasen wrote:
Good idea. I've made some edits to the page. One thing to consider is that empathy requires the whole telepathy stack, which may cause some size issues on the live image. [...]
On my F9/x86_64 install, after doing a 'yum install telepathy* empathy*', the whole of Empathy and the Telepathy stack take up just under 9 MB [1]. Is there really that tight of a squeeze on the CD? :O
Yes. The live images are constantly hitting up against the limit of the size of a CD. And as long as we're doing "CD", that will be the case. Because as soon as a size gap opens up (due to something shrinking or removing something, etc), something immediately comes in to fill it.
Jeremy
On Wed, 2008-08-06 at 21:42 -0400, Jeremy Katz wrote:
Yes. The live images are constantly hitting up against the limit of the size of a CD. And as long as we're doing "CD", that will be the case. Because as soon as a size gap opens up (due to something shrinking or removing something, etc), something immediately comes in to fill it.
Can't we switch to DVD's already? Would also mean we could include OpenOffice etc. thus making the delta to the legacy install media close to nil.
David
On Wed, 2008-08-06 at 22:22 -0400, David Zeuthen wrote:
On Wed, 2008-08-06 at 21:42 -0400, Jeremy Katz wrote:
Yes. The live images are constantly hitting up against the limit of the size of a CD. And as long as we're doing "CD", that will be the case. Because as soon as a size gap opens up (due to something shrinking or removing something, etc), something immediately comes in to fill it.
Can't we switch to DVD's already? Would also mean we could include OpenOffice etc. thus making the delta to the legacy install media close to nil.
I don't think enough machines have built-in DVD just yet...
Dan
On Wed, 2008-08-06 at 22:46 -0400, David Zeuthen wrote:
On Wed, 2008-08-06 at 22:42 -0400, Dan Williams wrote:
I don't think enough machines have built-in DVD just yet...
[Citation Needed]
(of course, now some smartass will now point out you started your sentence with "I think" - meaning no citation is needed etc. etc.)
Depends on how far back you want to look. If you're looking 2 or 3 years back, I think there's still too many machines with CD or CD/RW only. Could be wrong though. Maybe we can target F11 as the first distro that does live DVD?
Better yet, lets go through a slimming binge on the projects we are upstream for and start building with -Os :)
Dan
On Wed, 2008-08-06 at 22:22 -0400, David Zeuthen wrote:
On Wed, 2008-08-06 at 21:42 -0400, Jeremy Katz wrote:
Yes. The live images are constantly hitting up against the limit of the size of a CD. And as long as we're doing "CD", that will be the case. Because as soon as a size gap opens up (due to something shrinking or removing something, etc), something immediately comes in to fill it.
Can't we switch to DVD's already? Would also mean we could include OpenOffice etc. thus making the delta to the legacy install media close to nil.
Hey, I've been pushing for it for years :-)
But the last time I tried, the pushback was very strong from parts of the world such as India and South America. Where they had citations about lack of availability of media and burners, etc. And as we try to push the (desktop) live image as the "best" method of getting Fedora, taking those concerns into account seems pretty valid to me.
Jeremy
On Wed, Aug 6, 2008 at 10:50 PM, Jeremy Katz katzj@redhat.com wrote:
But the last time I tried, the pushback was very strong from parts of the world such as India and South America. Where they had citations about lack of availability of media and burners, etc. And as we try to push the (desktop) live image as the "best" method of getting Fedora, taking those concerns into account seems pretty valid to me.
*cough* region-localized images *cough*
On Wed, 2008-08-06 at 23:26 -0400, Colin Walters wrote:
On Wed, Aug 6, 2008 at 10:50 PM, Jeremy Katz katzj@redhat.com wrote:
But the last time I tried, the pushback was very strong from parts of the world such as India and South America. Where they had citations about lack of availability of media and burners, etc. And as we try to push the (desktop) live image as the "best" method of getting Fedora, taking those concerns into account seems pretty valid to me.
*cough* region-localized images *cough*
So now rather than having one set of images which we build, test, mass-produce and send around the world, we have to maintain N. Which adds whole new logistics problems. Not to mention infrastructure/mirror space, lowered torrent efficiency, and other things of that nature.
So it basically ends up trading off one set of problems for another, different one.
Jeremy
On Wed, 2008-08-06 at 23:35 -0400, Jeremy Katz wrote:
On Wed, 2008-08-06 at 23:26 -0400, Colin Walters wrote:
On Wed, Aug 6, 2008 at 10:50 PM, Jeremy Katz katzj@redhat.com wrote:
But the last time I tried, the pushback was very strong from parts of the world such as India and South America. Where they had citations about lack of availability of media and burners, etc. And as we try to push the (desktop) live image as the "best" method of getting Fedora, taking those concerns into account seems pretty valid to me.
*cough* region-localized images *cough*
So now rather than having one set of images which we build, test, mass-produce and send around the world, we have to maintain N. Which adds whole new logistics problems. Not to mention infrastructure/mirror space, lowered torrent efficiency, and other things of that nature.
So it basically ends up trading off one set of problems for another, different one.
It may still be worthwhile to reevaluate the tradeoffs every once in a while.
On Thu, Aug 7, 2008 at 5:35 AM, Jeremy Katz katzj@redhat.com wrote:
On Wed, 2008-08-06 at 23:26 -0400, Colin Walters wrote:
On Wed, Aug 6, 2008 at 10:50 PM, Jeremy Katz katzj@redhat.com wrote:
But the last time I tried, the pushback was very strong from parts of the world such as India and South America. Where they had citations about lack of availability of media and burners, etc. And as we try to push the (desktop) live image as the "best" method of getting Fedora, taking those concerns into account seems pretty valid to me.
*cough* region-localized images *cough*
So now rather than having one set of images which we build, test, mass-produce and send around the world, we have to maintain N. Which adds whole new logistics problems. Not to mention infrastructure/mirror space, lowered torrent efficiency, and other things of that nature.
So it basically ends up trading off one set of problems for another, different one.
We can limit the N to 2. LiveCD -> "limited* package set" LiveDVD -> "full* package set"
* better wording needed
On Wed, 2008-08-06 at 19:52 -0400, Matthias Clasen wrote:
Hi, just made a Feature page for GNOME 2.24: https://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Features/GNOME2_24
There are various tasks here, the main change not executed on yet is Empathy, which I've been investigating this week. If you see anything else that needs to be added to that page, please do it.
Good idea. I've made some edits to the page. One thing to consider is that empathy requires the whole telepathy stack, which may cause some size issues on the live image. On the other hande, libpurple is huge too, and loosing that may well make up for telepathy.
It is worth pointing out that you need to install telepathy-idle to get IRC support in empathy.
Speaking of size issues, could we reconsider using Epiphany (about 6MB rpm + about 1MB rpm for extensions) instead of Firefox (about 10MB rpm) as part of this Feature (both currently require xulrunner)? Epiphany is official part of the Gnome Project (in contrast to firefox), follows the gnome HIG, better integrates with various system settings and seems faster than firefox.
Thanks, Martin
Hi,
2008/8/7 Martin Sourada martin.sourada@gmail.com:
Speaking of size issues, could we reconsider using Epiphany (about 6MB rpm + about 1MB rpm for extensions) instead of Firefox (about 10MB rpm) as part of this Feature (both currently require xulrunner)? Epiphany is official part of the Gnome Project (in contrast to firefox), follows the gnome HIG, better integrates with various system settings and seems faster than firefox.
That one is a much more significant change. In particular, Empathy is a relatively new application and this is the first time we're really looking at it and getting an idea of what its status is. Now I do think it makes sense to evaluate these things continuously, I'd like not to pull the browsers into the scope of this feature.
To me it will be better to have a Live CD not DVD, i agree that not most of the machines comes with DVD.
On Wed, Aug 6, 2008 at 7:27 PM, Colin Walters walters@verbum.org wrote:
Hi, just made a Feature page for GNOME 2.24: https://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Features/GNOME2_24
There are various tasks here, the main change not executed on yet is Empathy, which I've been investigating this week. If you see anything else that needs to be added to that page, please do it.
-- Fedora-desktop-list mailing list Fedora-desktop-list@redhat.com https://www.redhat.com/mailman/listinfo/fedora-desktop-list
On Thu, Aug 7, 2008 at 1:27 AM, Colin Walters walters@verbum.org wrote:
Hi, just made a Feature page for GNOME 2.24: https://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Features/GNOME2_24
There are various tasks here, the main change not executed on yet is Empathy, which I've been investigating this week. If you see anything else that needs to be added to that page, please do it.
Looks more like an Empathy feature page than a GNOME 2.24 one to me.
On Wed, 2008-08-06 at 19:27 -0400, Colin Walters wrote:
There are various tasks here, the main change not executed on yet is Empathy, which I've been investigating this week. If you see anything else that needs to be added to that page, please do it.
In an effort to help expedite this and increase testing for the Beta freeze coming up soon, I've changed comps to reflect the Pidgin-->Empathy change. (Empathy is now the default with Pidgin as an optional item, instead of vice-versa.)
Please holler if anything breaks! :)
On Sun, 2008-08-24 at 15:21 -0700, Peter Gordon wrote:
On Wed, 2008-08-06 at 19:27 -0400, Colin Walters wrote:
There are various tasks here, the main change not executed on yet is Empathy, which I've been investigating this week. If you see anything else that needs to be added to that page, please do it.
In an effort to help expedite this and increase testing for the Beta freeze coming up soon, I've changed comps to reflect the Pidgin-->Empathy change. (Empathy is now the default with Pidgin as an optional item, instead of vice-versa.)
IMO, I think Empathy is still too immature to be replacing Pidgin yet. I know Ubuntu has been reviewing whether to make this default in their distro also, and have a pretty good comparison between.
https://wiki.ubuntu.com/EmpathyVsPidginUsability
Later, /B
2008/8/24 Brian Pepple bpepple@fedoraproject.org:
IMO, I think Empathy is still too immature to be replacing Pidgin yet. I know Ubuntu has been reviewing whether to make this default in their distro also, and have a pretty good comparison between.
Yeah, mpt did a very good review and we should take it into consideration. What I'd like to see is how much of this the Empathy developers address before 2.24. At least some of those have been fixed in SVN, but clearly some are hard to fix before Sep. 15.
On Sun, 2008-08-24 at 18:39 -0400, Brian Pepple wrote:
IMO, I think Empathy is still too immature to be replacing Pidgin yet. I know Ubuntu has been reviewing whether to make this default in their distro also, and have a pretty good comparison between.
Well, My idea is to make it the default (hopefully) for the Beta and if it's still too rough around the edges near release time, we can just switch it back to Pidgin without much ado.
I had found similar articles, but this is my first time reading through such attention to detail in their comparison. Very interesting. Thanks for the link!
Peter Gordon wrote:
In an effort to help expedite this and increase testing for the Beta freeze coming up soon, I've changed comps to reflect the Pidgin-->Empathy change. (Empathy is now the default with Pidgin as an optional item, instead of vice-versa.)
And Haze will also be installed by default? For _me_, Empathy is *completely useless* without the additional protocols from Haze.
BTW, I find it weird to install Empathy and then add a plugin (Haze) to make it work with the Pidgin's core (purple) instead of the simple solution of just staying with Pidgin.
On Mon, Aug 25, 2008 at 9:48 AM, Nicu Buculei nicu_fedora@nicubunu.ro wrote:
Peter Gordon wrote:
In an effort to help expedite this and increase testing for the Beta freeze coming up soon, I've changed comps to reflect the Pidgin-->Empathy change. (Empathy is now the default with Pidgin as an optional item, instead of vice-versa.)
And Haze will also be installed by default? For _me_, Empathy is *completely useless* without the additional protocols from Haze.
Yeah it needs Haze to be able to compete with pidgin (protocoll support), but this will drag in libpurple. So in the end it will use *more* disk space than pidgin + libpurple and we already have space problems on the livecd.
On Mon, 2008-08-25 at 10:48 +0300, Nicu Buculei wrote:
Peter Gordon wrote:
In an effort to help expedite this and increase testing for the Beta freeze coming up soon, I've changed comps to reflect the Pidgin-->Empathy change. (Empathy is now the default with Pidgin as an optional item, instead of vice-versa.)
And Haze will also be installed by default? For _me_, Empathy is *completely useless* without the additional protocols from Haze.
BTW, I find it weird to install Empathy and then add a plugin (Haze) to make it work with the Pidgin's core (purple) instead of the simple solution of just staying with Pidgin.
Dunno which protocols do you use, but I (using ICQ, MSN, Jabber and IRC) am perfectly fine with gajim which supports only Jabber (the rest is handled via jabber-to-something-other transports) and has IMHO the best GUI, I've ever seen (also svn snapshot can render LaTeX formulas in conversations which is a very valuable function to me) in instant messengers. Also me thinks doing this pidgin->empathy change just before beta freeze is like testing if the change is worth doing it or not.
Marin
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