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hi all. I'm writing in to let everyone on the desktop list know that I'm intending to work with anyone here and with the gnome people to fix all remaining accessibility issues for gnome 3.18. This currently includes, unlabeled controlls, buttons and links, in various gnome control center modules. Duplicate controlls in the power settings module, duplicate buttons in gnome tweak tool. Gdm is inaccessible to orca. Orca is unable to see the login screen so cannot navigate it's controlls. This last one is exclusive to gnome 3.16, gnome 3.14 works just fine. I plan to have all these issues ironed out in time for gnome 3.18 and f23. I will file bugs, provide logs, anything that is necessary. My plan is that by f23, there will be 0 (zero) accessibility issues with orca and gnome shell. I would like to make one possible request, not sure where this is applicable. Would it be possible, as a temporary measure, to cause gdm to fall back to using x for it's login screen when accessibility is enabled? I have no idea how this can be done, but this would allow orca to again see the screen and navigate it, until whatever is wrong in wayland can be fixed up stream? If there are any people who work on gnome itself, would you mind logging on to #fedora-accessibility, or I can log on to #a11y on gnome's server to discuss issues? I don't want to flood the list with accessibility traphic. Thanks Kendell clark Sent from Fedora GNU/Linux
On Mar 22, 2015 6:53 PM, "kendell clark" coffeekingms@gmail.com wrote:
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hi all. I'm writing in to let everyone on the desktop list know that I'm intending to work with anyone here and with the gnome people to fix all remaining accessibility issues for gnome 3.18. This currently includes, unlabeled controlls, buttons and links, in various gnome control center modules. Duplicate controlls in the power settings module, duplicate buttons in gnome tweak tool. Gdm is inaccessible to orca. Orca is unable to see the login screen so cannot navigate it's controlls. This last one is exclusive to gnome 3.16, gnome 3.14 works just fine. I plan to have all these issues ironed out in time for gnome 3.18 and f23. I will file bugs, provide logs, anything that is necessary. My plan is that by f23, there will be 0 (zero) accessibility issues with orca and gnome shell. I would like to make one possible request, not sure where this is applicable. Would it be possible, as a temporary measure, to cause gdm to fall back to using x for it's login screen when accessibility is enabled? I have no idea how this can be done, but this would allow orca to again see the screen and navigate it, until whatever is wrong in wayland can be fixed up stream? If there are any people who work on gnome itself, would you mind logging on to #fedora-accessibility, or I can log on to #a11y on gnome's server to discuss issues? I don't want to flood the list with accessibility traphic. Thanks Kendell clark Sent from Fedora GNU/Linux -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: GnuPG v2
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I'll throw out my vague understanding, in the hope that someone will validate or knock it down:
A big driver for moving to Wayland is the additional security context provided; one application, by design, cannot access another application through the interface to the display server. I *think* that orca works *because* it is able to access other applications through Xorg. So, based on this very basic understanding, I would expect that Orca would not work as-is on Wayland, and maybe would need a fundamental redesign to follow the migration away from X.
GDM on F22 is a Wayland session by default, so it is isolated from other processes ie Orca.
--Pete --Pete
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hi This makes sense. I agree with wayland's approach. Unfortunately, this has the side effect of rendering orca useless until this can be fixed, which imo needs to be done yesterday. I'm not trying to be demanding, but this does need fixing, else blind users won't have access to linux's graphical sessions. Thanks Kendell clark Sent from Fedora GNU/Linux
Pete Travis wrote:
On Mar 22, 2015 6:53 PM, "kendell clark" coffeekingms@gmail.com wrote:
hi all. I'm writing in to let everyone on the desktop list know that I'm intending to work with anyone here and with the gnome people to fix all remaining accessibility issues for gnome 3.18. This currently includes, unlabeled controlls, buttons and links, in various gnome control center modules. Duplicate controlls in the power settings module, duplicate buttons in gnome tweak tool. Gdm is inaccessible to orca. Orca is unable to see the login screen so cannot navigate it's controlls. This last one is exclusive to gnome 3.16, gnome 3.14 works just fine. I plan to have all these issues ironed out in time for gnome 3.18 and f23. I will file bugs, provide logs, anything that is necessary. My plan is that by f23, there will be 0 (zero) accessibility issues with orca and gnome shell. I would like to make one possible request, not sure where this is applicable. Would it be possible, as a temporary measure, to cause gdm to fall back to using x for it's login screen when accessibility is enabled? I have no idea how this can be done, but this would allow orca to again see the screen and navigate it, until whatever is wrong in wayland can be fixed up stream? If there are any people who work on gnome itself, would you mind logging on to #fedora-accessibility, or I can log on to #a11y on gnome's server to discuss issues? I don't want to flood the list with accessibility traphic. Thanks Kendell clark Sent from Fedora GNU/Linux
--
I'll throw out my vague understanding, in the hope that someone will validate or knock it down:
A big driver for moving to Wayland is the additional security context provided; one application, by design, cannot access another application through the interface to the display server. I *think* that orca works *because* it is able to access other applications through Xorg. So, based on this very basic understanding, I would expect that Orca would not work as-is on Wayland, and maybe would need a fundamental redesign to follow the migration away from X.
GDM on F22 is a Wayland session by default, so it is isolated from other processes ie Orca.
--Pete --Pete
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hi I've just tested with latest gdm on f21, currently at version 3.15.92. If I change wayland-enable from true to false, orca is then able to access and read the gdm window. If it is turned back on, orca immediately is blind. This proves wayland is the problem. Now to go through the fun process of fixing it. Thanks Kendell clark Sent from Fedora GNU/Linux
kendell clark wrote:
hi This makes sense. I agree with wayland's approach. Unfortunately, this has the side effect of rendering orca useless until this can be fixed, which imo needs to be done yesterday. I'm not trying to be demanding, but this does need fixing, else blind users won't have access to linux's graphical sessions. Thanks Kendell clark Sent from Fedora GNU/Linux
Pete Travis wrote:
On Mar 22, 2015 6:53 PM, "kendell clark" coffeekingms@gmail.com wrote:
hi all. I'm writing in to let everyone on the desktop list know that I'm intending to work with anyone here and with the gnome people to fix all remaining accessibility issues for gnome 3.18. This currently includes, unlabeled controlls, buttons and links, in various gnome control center modules. Duplicate controlls in the power settings module, duplicate buttons in gnome tweak tool. Gdm is inaccessible to orca. Orca is unable to see the login screen so cannot navigate it's controlls. This last one is exclusive to gnome 3.16, gnome 3.14 works just fine. I plan to have all these issues ironed out in time for gnome 3.18 and f23. I will file bugs, provide logs, anything that is necessary. My plan is that by f23, there will be 0 (zero) accessibility issues with orca and gnome shell. I would like to make one possible request, not sure where this is applicable. Would it be possible, as a temporary measure, to cause gdm to fall back to using x for it's login screen when accessibility is enabled? I have no idea how this can be done, but this would allow orca to again see the screen and navigate it, until whatever is wrong in wayland can be fixed up stream? If there are any people who work on gnome itself, would you mind logging on to #fedora-accessibility, or I can log on to #a11y on gnome's server to discuss issues? I don't want to flood the list with accessibility traphic. Thanks Kendell clark Sent from Fedora GNU/Linux
--
I'll throw out my vague understanding, in the hope that someone will validate or knock it down:
A big driver for moving to Wayland is the additional security context provided; one application, by design, cannot access another application through the interface to the display server. I *think* that orca works *because* it is able to access other applications through Xorg. So, based on this very basic understanding, I would expect that Orca would not work as-is on Wayland, and maybe would need a fundamental redesign to follow the migration away from X.
GDM on F22 is a Wayland session by default, so it is isolated from other processes ie Orca.
--Pete --Pete
On Mon, Mar 23, 2015 at 2:39 AM, Pete Travis lists@petetravis.com wrote:
On Mar 22, 2015 6:53 PM, "kendell clark" coffeekingms@gmail.com wrote:
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hi all. I'm writing in to let everyone on the desktop list know that I'm intending to work with anyone here and with the gnome people to fix all remaining accessibility issues for gnome 3.18. This currently includes, unlabeled controlls, buttons and links, in various gnome control center modules. Duplicate controlls in the power settings module, duplicate buttons in gnome tweak tool. Gdm is inaccessible to orca. Orca is unable to see the login screen so cannot navigate it's controlls. This last one is exclusive to gnome 3.16, gnome 3.14 works just fine. I plan to have all these issues ironed out in time for gnome 3.18 and f23. I will file bugs, provide logs, anything that is necessary. My plan is that by f23, there will be 0 (zero) accessibility issues with orca and gnome shell. I would like to make one possible request, not sure where this is applicable. Would it be possible, as a temporary measure, to cause gdm to fall back to using x for it's login screen when accessibility is enabled? I have no idea how this can be done, but this would allow orca to again see the screen and navigate it, until whatever is wrong in wayland can be fixed up stream? If there are any people who work on gnome itself, would you mind logging on to #fedora-accessibility, or I can log on to #a11y on gnome's server to discuss issues? I don't want to flood the list with accessibility traphic. Thanks Kendell clark Sent from Fedora GNU/Linux -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: GnuPG v2
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I'll throw out my vague understanding, in the hope that someone will validate or knock it down:
A big driver for moving to Wayland is the additional security context provided; one application, by design, cannot access another application through the interface to the display server. I *think* that orca works *because* it is able to access other applications through Xorg. So, based on this very basic understanding, I would expect that Orca would not work as-is on Wayland, and maybe would need a fundamental redesign to follow the migration away from X.
GDM on F22 is a Wayland session by default, so it is isolated from other processes ie Orca.
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hi Thanks for this link. This is, to put it bluntly, discouraging. I would expect the gnome accessibility team, if there is one, to have gotten further than this. Guess it's bug filing time. This is a critical area for me and other linux blind people. Whether wayland or x is used, orca should be able to access apps running the same way it does running under xorg. If it can't, it needs to be fixed. I'll ping the orca people to see what they know about this, but I think the brunt of the work lies in wayland and/or gnome. I'm always on #a11y on irc.gnome.org. Should I find a wayland channel and idle in there? Are the wayland people interested or able to fix accessibility issues? To be honest, accessibility baked into the display server with an API orca talks to would be ideal. Possibly at-spi2, but whatever is used it would reduce the complexity and the multiple layors needed for orca to speak. Thanks Kendell clark Sent from Fedora GNU/Linux
drago01 wrote:
On Mon, Mar 23, 2015 at 2:39 AM, Pete Travis lists@petetravis.com wrote:
On Mar 22, 2015 6:53 PM, "kendell clark" coffeekingms@gmail.com wrote:
hi all. I'm writing in to let everyone on the desktop list know that I'm intending to work with anyone here and with the gnome people to fix all remaining accessibility issues for gnome 3.18. This currently includes, unlabeled controlls, buttons and links, in various gnome control center modules. Duplicate controlls in the power settings module, duplicate buttons in gnome tweak tool. Gdm is inaccessible to orca. Orca is unable to see the login screen so cannot navigate it's controlls. This last one is exclusive to gnome 3.16, gnome 3.14 works just fine. I plan to have all these issues ironed out in time for gnome 3.18 and f23. I will file bugs, provide logs, anything that is necessary. My plan is that by f23, there will be 0 (zero) accessibility issues with orca and gnome shell. I would like to make one possible request, not sure where this is applicable. Would it be possible, as a temporary measure, to cause gdm to fall back to using x for it's login screen when accessibility is enabled? I have no idea how this can be done, but this would allow orca to again see the screen and navigate it, until whatever is wrong in wayland can be fixed up stream? If there are any people who work on gnome itself, would you mind logging on to #fedora-accessibility, or I can log on to #a11y on gnome's server to discuss issues? I don't want to flood the list with accessibility traphic. Thanks Kendell clark Sent from Fedora GNU/Linux
--
I'll throw out my vague understanding, in the hope that someone will validate or knock it down:
A big driver for moving to Wayland is the additional security context provided; one application, by design, cannot access another application through the interface to the display server. I *think* that orca works *because* it is able to access other applications through Xorg. So, based on this very basic understanding, I would expect that Orca would not work as-is on Wayland, and maybe would need a fundamental redesign to follow the migration away from X.
GDM on F22 is a Wayland session by default, so it is isolated from other processes ie Orca.
desktop@lists.fedoraproject.org
-
drago01 -
kendell clark -
Pete Travis