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hi all The subject is kind of vague, so I'll try to clarify. In order to participate in video meetings with fedora's council or anyone else that uses it, you currently have to use google hangouts. I'm not averse to this even though it's closed source software, but there's still a rather concerning issue. Currently, I believe, I don't know for sure, but I think the only way to do this is by installing either google chrome or chromium. This wouldn't be a problem, except that chrome and chromium provide no accessibility support. That is, orca, the main linux screen reader, cannot get at the contents of web pages to read them. This can be fixed by installing an addon to chrome/chromium called chromevox, which is a screen reader specifically designed for chrome. This isn't a major problem, except that until this is done, a blind person cannot use chrome. The procedure for doing this isn't at all intuitive. You have to go to the chrome app store, type in chromevox, and install it. After this, chrome will be accessible. This isn't easy to do in fedora, largely because fedora doesn't feature chromium, and I object to chrome's license. I'm not writing in to complain, but just to ask if there are any plans in place to migrate away from something that requires a specific web browser to participate in? If this were doable in firefox or any derivitives, this would not be an issue, because firefox and it's spinoffs are accessible to orca. Thanks Kendell clark
On Jun 10, 2015 7:50 PM, "kendell clark" coffeekingms@gmail.com wrote:
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hi all The subject is kind of vague, so I'll try to clarify. In order to participate in video meetings with fedora's council or anyone else that uses it, you currently have to use google hangouts. I'm not averse to this even though it's closed source software, but there's still a rather concerning issue. Currently, I believe, I don't know for sure, but I think the only way to do this is by installing either google chrome or chromium. This wouldn't be a problem, except that chrome and chromium provide no accessibility support. That is, orca, the main linux screen reader, cannot get at the contents of web pages to read them. This can be fixed by installing an addon to chrome/chromium called chromevox, which is a screen reader specifically designed for chrome. This isn't a major problem, except that until this is done, a blind person cannot use chrome. The procedure for doing this isn't at all intuitive. You have to go to the chrome app store, type in chromevox, and install it. After this, chrome will be accessible. This isn't easy to do in fedora, largely because fedora doesn't feature chromium, and I object to chrome's license. I'm not writing in to complain, but just to ask if there are any plans in place to migrate away from something that requires a specific web browser to participate in? If this were doable in firefox or any derivitives, this would not be an issue, because firefox and it's spinoffs are accessible to orca.
You can use Firefox for hangouts. There is s plugin that needs to be installed but then it works.
That doesn't address the wider issues of using a non-oss tool, but hangouts itself does not require chrome.
josh
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hi Ah, then my email wasn't needed then. I'd still rather fedora used an oss tool to do this, but I trust fedora knows what it's doing, and will switch when one that's good enough comes around. Thanks Kendell clark
Josh Boyer wrote:
On Jun 10, 2015 7:50 PM, "kendell clark" coffeekingms@gmail.com wrote:
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hi all The subject is kind of vague, so I'll try to clarify. In order to participate in video meetings with fedora's council or anyone else that uses it, you currently have to use google hangouts. I'm not averse to this even though it's closed source software, but there's still a rather concerning issue. Currently, I believe, I don't know for sure, but I think the only way to do this is by installing either google chrome or chromium. This wouldn't be a problem, except that chrome and chromium provide no accessibility support. That is, orca, the main linux screen reader, cannot get at the contents of web pages to read them. This can be fixed by installing an addon to chrome/chromium called chromevox, which is a screen reader specifically designed for chrome. This isn't a major problem, except that until this is done, a blind person cannot use chrome. The procedure for doing this isn't at all intuitive. You have to go to the chrome app store, type in chromevox, and install it. After this, chrome will be accessible. This isn't easy to do in fedora, largely because fedora doesn't feature chromium, and I object to chrome's license. I'm not writing in to complain, but just to ask if there are any plans in place to migrate away from something that requires a specific web browser to participate in? If this were doable in firefox or any derivitives, this would not be an issue, because firefox and it's spinoffs are accessible to orca.
You can use Firefox for hangouts. There is s plugin that needs to be installed but then it works.
That doesn't address the wider issues of using a non-oss tool, but hangouts itself does not require chrome.
josh
On Wed, 2015-06-10 at 19:47 -0500, kendell clark wrote:
hi Ah, then my email wasn't needed then. I'd still rather fedora used an oss tool to do this, but I trust fedora knows what it's doing, and will switch when one that's good enough comes around. Thanks Kendell clark
I didn't realize the Council uses Google Hangouts for communication. Are you sure; where did you read that? That's extremely surprising and would be contrary to Fedora's mission, since it's impossible to use Hangouts without installing nonfree software on your computer. It's not as if we don't already have good FOSS solutions for video calls: either XMPP Jingle or SIP would work. (But this is definitely the wrong mailing list for this discussion....)
Aside: you can also use Epiphany for Google hangouts. You have to install the nonfree plugin, but then it works. The maintainer of Orca also works on accessibility for WebKit, the rendering engine used in Epiphany, so she makes sure accessibility is well-supported (once you figure out how to turn on caret browsing with F7).
Aside #2: I searched the Chromium source tree for "accessibility" and "ATK" and found no shortage of results for each. It looks like they have a bundled copy of ATK. https://chromium.googlesource.com/chromium/src.git/+/0e9bcce45c12479259c705a... is interesting; not sure what to make of it besides that they deleted all their Linux accessibility code and then decided to bring it back?
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hi I found an article about it on planet fedora. Let me see if I can get an exact link. I know the council uses irc channels like most of fedora, but they also use video for some things, I'm sorry, I'm not clear on exactly what they use it for. Let me get that link. Here we are, http://tirfa.com/supporting-open-source-video-conferencing.html. This was on the planet fedora site. Thanks Kendell clark
Michael Catanzaro wrote:
On Wed, 2015-06-10 at 19:47 -0500, kendell clark wrote:
hi Ah, then my email wasn't needed then. I'd still rather fedora used an oss tool to do this, but I trust fedora knows what it's doing, and will switch when one that's good enough comes around. Thanks Kendell clark
I didn't realize the Council uses Google Hangouts for communication. Are you sure; where did you read that? That's extremely surprising and would be contrary to Fedora's mission, since it's impossible to use Hangouts without installing nonfree software on your computer. It's not as if we don't already have good FOSS solutions for video calls: either XMPP Jingle or SIP would work. (But this is definitely the wrong mailing list for this discussion....)
Aside: you can also use Epiphany for Google hangouts. You have to install the nonfree plugin, but then it works. The maintainer of Orca also works on accessibility for WebKit, the rendering engine used in Epiphany, so she makes sure accessibility is well-supported (once you figure out how to turn on caret browsing with F7).
Aside #2: I searched the Chromium source tree for "accessibility" and "ATK" and found no shortage of results for each. It looks like they have a bundled copy of ATK. https://chromium.googlesource.com/chromium/src.git/+/0e9bcce45c1247925
9c705a07a6b4b1e73b84bf2
is interesting; not sure what to make of it besides that they deleted all their Linux
accessibility code and then decided to bring it back?
On Wed, Jun 10, 2015 at 08:29:50PM -0500, Michael Catanzaro wrote:
I didn't realize the Council uses Google Hangouts for communication. Are you sure; where did you read that? That's extremely surprising and would be contrary to Fedora's mission, since it's impossible to use Hangouts without installing nonfree software on your computer. It's not as if we don't already have good FOSS solutions for video calls: either XMPP Jingle or SIP would work. (But this is definitely the wrong mailing list for this discussion....)
See my other message for clarification.
I haven't found a good many-to-many + many more + recording solution for XMPP Jingle / SIP. I looked briefly at Jitsi Videobridge, but it wasn't trivial to set up (and I'm unclear on recording), and we wanted to get to actually doing the video status reports — I put out a call for help on getting something open up and running and got crickets, so here we are for now.
I also pledged for the talky.io kickstarter at https://www.kickstarter.com/projects/talky/talky-the-first-truly-simple-vide... but at the current rate I'm not sure they'll reach their goal.
And yeah, let's take further discussion to the council-discuss list.
On 06/11/2015 10:33 AM, Matthew Miller wrote:
I haven't found a good many-to-many + many more + recording solution for XMPP Jingle / SIP. I looked briefly at Jitsi Videobridge, but it wasn't trivial to set up (and I'm unclear on recording), and we wanted to get to actually doing the video status reports — I put out a call for help on getting something open up and running and got crickets, so here we are for now.
There's also opentokrtc.com, which is FLOSS, but it doesn't have screen sharing, and when we tried using it for the first Fedora Hubs hackfest we seemed to hit a limit at 12 or 15 participants IIRC and it started randomly kicking people off.
~m
On Wed, Jun 10, 2015 at 07:47:03PM -0500, kendell clark wrote:
Ah, then my email wasn't needed then. I'd still rather fedora used an oss tool to do this, but I trust fedora knows what it's doing, and will switch when one that's good enough comes around.
Hi Kendall. I appreciate your concern here (although, probably not on topic for the desktop list). The meetings are streamed through Youtube in real time, and although I didn't do it yet, I intend to convert all of them to fully-open .webm files and post separately after the fact. (Once we have a Fedora Council blog, these will show up there.)
Additionally, Remy has been transcribing in #fedora-meeting in IRC in near-real-time. The hangout itself only allows up to 10 participants, so we've been using those slots for council members and speakers.
And, on the OSS tool, yes, absolutely. Needs are:
1. Somewhere around a dozen active participants allowed 2. Live stream to some larger number — "hundreds" is probably adequate 3. Recorded for later (ideally straight to an open format) 4. Either minimal fuss in setting up, or someone willing to do the fussing.
On Thu, Jun 11, 2015 at 10:24:30AM -0400, Matthew Miller wrote:
- Somewhere around a dozen active participants allowed
- Live stream to some larger number — "hundreds" is probably adequate
- Recorded for later (ideally straight to an open format)
- Either minimal fuss in setting up, or someone willing to do the fussing.
Oh also: screen sharing or some other way of getting slides into the presentation.
On Thu, Jun 11, 2015 at 5:26 PM, Matthew Miller mattdm@fedoraproject.org wrote:
- Somewhere around a dozen active participants allowed
- Live stream to some larger number — "hundreds" is probably
adequate 3. Recorded for later (ideally straight to an open format) 4. Either minimal fuss in setting up, or someone willing to do the fussing.
Oh also: screen sharing or some other way of getting slides into the presentation.
Besides the live streaming, all of these are supported by many WebRTC solutions out there (eg. talky.io, appear.in, meet.jit.si, etc)
On Thu, Jun 11, 2015 at 05:32:05PM +0300, Nikos Roussos wrote:
- Somewhere around a dozen active participants allowed
- Live stream to some larger number — "hundreds" is probably
adequate 3. Recorded for later (ideally straight to an open format) 4. Either minimal fuss in setting up, or someone willing to do the fussing.
Oh also: screen sharing or some other way of getting slides into the presentation.
Besides the live streaming, all of these are supported by many WebRTC solutions out there (eg. talky.io, appear.in, meet.jit.si, etc)
Well, also besides supporting a dozen particants and recording. For example, talky.io only supports up to five participants and as far as I know doesn't do recording. Appear.in is getting closer with 8, but again, no recording. I think jitsi should support more participants, but I didn't see a recording option there either.
Don't get me wrong, I'd love to use one of these things. And if you can help us overcome those limitations in any way, awesome.
On 11/06/15 07:32 AM, Nikos Roussos wrote:
On Thu, Jun 11, 2015 at 5:26 PM, Matthew Miller mattdm@fedoraproject.org wrote:
1. Somewhere around a dozen active participants allowed 2. Live stream to some larger number — "hundreds" is probably adequate 3. Recorded for later (ideally straight to an open format) 4. Either minimal fuss in setting up, or someone willing to do the fussing.Oh also: screen sharing or some other way of getting slides into the presentation.
Besides the live streaming, all of these are supported by many WebRTC solutions out there (eg. talky.io, appear.in, meet.jit.si, etc)
Has anyone tested fedrtc.org?
I am including the post submitted by Daniel Pocock two weeks ago
-------- Forwarded Message -------- Subject: FedRTC.org feedback? Date: Sat, 30 May 2015 10:19:09 +0200 From: Daniel Pocock daniel@pocock.pro Reply-To: Development discussions related to Fedora devel@lists.fedoraproject.org To: devel@lists.fedoraproject.org
Hi,
I'm just wondering if anybody has any feedback about https://FedRTC.org
Did you try it from a browser? Which browser worked better?
Did you try any SIP clients with it, e.g. GNOME Empathy[1], Lumicall[2], Linphone[3], Sflphone[4], Jitsi[5], Ekiga[6], CSipSimple[7]? Many SIP clients should work just by giving them the user@fedrtc.org SIP address, they can discover the other settings from NAPTR and SRV lookups.
It is currently not possible to make calls where one user has a normal softphone and the other user is using a browser. This is because the browsers require more advanced variations of the streaming protocols (e.g. Opus codec, AVPF, DTLS-SRTP) and none of the softphones have implemented those fully. So it is browser to browser or softphone to softphone for now.
Regards,
Daniel
1. https://apps.fedoraproject.org/packages/telepathy-rakia (for Empathy) 2. http://lumicall.org 3. https://apps.fedoraproject.org/packages/linphone 4. https://apps.fedoraproject.org/packages/sflphone 5. http://jitsi.org 6. https://apps.fedoraproject.org/packages/ekiga 7. https://f-droid.org/wiki/page/com.csipsimple
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hi Got it. Again, I wasn't writing to complain, I'd just heard about this and was raising the alarm only because the post I read said you had to use chrome, which I cannot use without a lot of hoopla. Now that I know I can use firefox, I'll just use that whenever I want to watch a video, since i'm not on the council. Thanks Kendell clark
Matthew Miller wrote:
On Wed, Jun 10, 2015 at 07:47:03PM -0500, kendell clark wrote:
Ah, then my email wasn't needed then. I'd still rather fedora used an oss tool to do this, but I trust fedora knows what it's doing, and will switch when one that's good enough comes around.
Hi Kendall. I appreciate your concern here (although, probably not on topic for the desktop list). The meetings are streamed through Youtube in real time, and although I didn't do it yet, I intend to convert all of them to fully-open .webm files and post separately after the fact. (Once we have a Fedora Council blog, these will show up there.)
Additionally, Remy has been transcribing in #fedora-meeting in IRC in near-real-time. The hangout itself only allows up to 10 participants, so we've been using those slots for council members and speakers.
And, on the OSS tool, yes, absolutely. Needs are:
- Somewhere around a dozen active participants allowed 2. Live
stream to some larger number "hundreds" is probably adequate 3. Recorded for later (ideally straight to an open format) 4. Either minimal fuss in setting up, or someone willing to do the fussing.
FYI just to possibly help with the streaming and recording: OBS https://obsproject.com/ . You still need a service to broadcast the stream of course (like nginx rtmp module [1], VLC, youtube, twitch and the like)
[1] https://github.com/arut/nginx-rtmp-module
On 11 June 2015 at 21:16, kendell clark coffeekingms@gmail.com wrote:
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hi Got it. Again, I wasn't writing to complain, I'd just heard about this and was raising the alarm only because the post I read said you had to use chrome, which I cannot use without a lot of hoopla. Now that I know I can use firefox, I'll just use that whenever I want to watch a video, since i'm not on the council. Thanks Kendell clark
Matthew Miller wrote:
On Wed, Jun 10, 2015 at 07:47:03PM -0500, kendell clark wrote:
Ah, then my email wasn't needed then. I'd still rather fedora used an oss tool to do this, but I trust fedora knows what it's doing, and will switch when one that's good enough comes around.
Hi Kendall. I appreciate your concern here (although, probably not on topic for the desktop list). The meetings are streamed through Youtube in real time, and although I didn't do it yet, I intend to convert all of them to fully-open .webm files and post separately after the fact. (Once we have a Fedora Council blog, these will show up there.)
Additionally, Remy has been transcribing in #fedora-meeting in IRC in near-real-time. The hangout itself only allows up to 10 participants, so we've been using those slots for council members and speakers.
And, on the OSS tool, yes, absolutely. Needs are:
- Somewhere around a dozen active participants allowed 2. Live
stream to some larger number — "hundreds" is probably adequate 3. Recorded for later (ideally straight to an open format) 4. Either minimal fuss in setting up, or someone willing to do the fussing.
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