-- Adam Williamson Fedora QA Community Monkey IRC: adamw | Fedora Talk: adamwill AT fedoraproject DOT org http://www.happyassassin.net ------------------------------ Message: 5 Date: Thu, 05 Nov 2009 14:56:42 -0500 From: Matthias Clasen mclasen@redhat.com Subject: Re: Desktop Live DVD:  diff To: Discussions about development for the Fedora desktop     fedora-desktop-list@redhat.com Message-ID: 1257451002.1875.2.camel@planemask Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8" On Thu, 2009-11-05 at 11:55 -0800, Adam Williamson wrote: > I'm not sure I like the idea, if the idea is 'stop doing a small > functional live image and make our smallest 'complete-out-of-the-box' > image 2GB big'. > The biggest gap in terms of 'complete-out-of-the-box' is OpenOffice. Including that brings us up to around 850M or so. ------------------------------ Message: 6 Date: Thu, 5 Nov 2009 21:05:30 +0100 From: drago01 drago01@gmail.com Subject: Re: Desktop Live DVD: diff To: Discussions about development for the Fedora desktop     fedora-desktop-list@redhat.com Message-ID:     f6ca9fed0911051205i453be449jeb0ec9090c756505@mail.gmail.com Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 On Thu, Nov 5, 2009 at 8:56 PM, Matthias Clasen mclasen@redhat.com wrote: > On Thu, 2009-11-05 at 11:55 -0800, Adam Williamson wrote: > >> I'm not sure I like the idea, if the idea is 'stop doing a small >> functional live image and make our smallest 'complete-out-of-the-box' >> image 2GB big'. >> > > The biggest gap in terms of 'complete-out-of-the-box' is OpenOffice. > Including that brings us up to around 850M or so. Finally we can move away from the 1990s (CDs), but yeah I agree besides OO.org I can't think of an app that I really miss on the live media. Just because we do have more space available does not mean that we have to fill it with random crap. ------------------------------ Message: 7 Date: Thu, 05 Nov 2009 15:34:51 -0500 From: David Zeuthen davidz@redhat.com Subject: Re: Desktop Live DVD:  diff To: Discussions about development for the Fedora desktop     fedora-desktop-list@redhat.com Message-ID: 1257453291.17978.12.camel@localhost.localdomain Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8" On Thu, 2009-11-05 at 11:55 -0800, Adam Williamson wrote: > Personally I think one of the nice things about a live CD image is it > creates a good restriction for building a nice focused working system in > a reasonable amount of space. 1GB would more or less keep that; 2GB is > starting to introduce an awful lot of wiggle room for not caring about > including useless crap. Nah, this is a bad reason - and if it's the case we're already doomed. (FWIW, I don't think it's the case - I trust Matthias and other Live CD desktop maintainers to put only sensible stuff on our images.) Also, no-one says we _must_ include useless crap or even use all of the space. And no-one says the space we're going to use is to be used for software. I've advocated earlier that we should try and promote things like Ogg Theora. For example, we could include   http://www.bigbuckbunny.org/ on the media. In my view, that would make Fedora a lot more appealing. > And remember, large USB keys may be cheap as chips nowadays but > bandwidth ain't, always. Aren't there still people in Australia with > absurd caps like 10GB/month? They do have mirrors in Australia. > I'm not sure I like the idea, if the idea is 'stop doing a small > functional live image and make our smallest 'complete-out-of-the-box' > image 2GB big'. No one says the desktop image should be "our smallest 'complete-out-of-the-box' image". In fact, I think it would be a mistake to say it should be. Also: Remember the days before live CDs? Back then, about 3+ years ago, we didn't have any problems asking people to download a whopping six CDs. F13 will be released in 2010.      David ------------------------------ Message: 8 Date: Thu, 5 Nov 2009 15:37:43 -0500 (EST) From: Seth Vidal skvidal@fedoraproject.org Subject: Re: Desktop Live DVD: diff To: Discussions about development for the Fedora desktop     fedora-desktop-list@redhat.com Message-ID: alpine.LFD.2.00.0911051536440.9192@localhost.localdomain Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII; format=flowed On Thu, 5 Nov 2009, David Zeuthen wrote: > On Thu, 2009-11-05 at 11:55 -0800, Adam Williamson wrote: >> Personally I think one of the nice things about a live CD image is it >> creates a good restriction for building a nice focused working system in >> a reasonable amount of space. 1GB would more or less keep that; 2GB is >> starting to introduce an awful lot of wiggle room for not caring about >> including useless crap. > > Nah, this is a bad reason - and if it's the case we're already doomed. > > (FWIW, I don't think it's the case - I trust Matthias and other Live CD > desktop maintainers to put only sensible stuff on our images.) > > Also, no-one says we _must_ include useless crap or even use all of the > space. And no-one says the space we're going to use is to be used for > software. I've advocated earlier that we should try and promote things > like Ogg Theora. For example, we could include > >  http://www.bigbuckbunny.org/ > > on the media. In my view, that would make Fedora a lot more appealing. > >> And remember, large USB keys may be cheap as chips nowadays but >> bandwidth ain't, always. Aren't there still people in Australia with >> absurd caps like 10GB/month? > > They do have mirrors in Australia. > >> I'm not sure I like the idea, if the idea is 'stop doing a small >> functional live image and make our smallest 'complete-out-of-the-box' >> image 2GB big'. > > No one says the desktop image should be "our smallest > 'complete-out-of-the-box' image". In fact, I think it would be a mistake > to say it should be. > > Also: Remember the days before live CDs? Back then, about 3+ years ago, > we didn't have any problems asking people to download a whopping six > CDs. > Well, to be fair we didn't tell them download 6 cds. We told them, if they were bandwidth-restricted to download the boot.iso and boot and install via the net talking to a local mirror. not disputing any other points - but it's not like the super-small image has ever been 6-cds. -sv ------------------------------ Message: 9 Date: Thu, 05 Nov 2009 21:47:02 +0100 From: Lars Herrmann herrmann@redhat.com Subject: Re: Desktop Live DVD:  diff To: Discussions about development for the Fedora desktop     fedora-desktop-list@redhat.com Message-ID: 1257454022.3222.8636.camel@x61.sulz Content-Type: text/plain Am Donnerstag, den 05.11.2009, 14:56 -0500 schrieb Matthias Clasen: > On Thu, 2009-11-05 at 11:55 -0800, Adam Williamson wrote: > > > I'm not sure I like the idea, if the idea is 'stop doing a small > > functional live image and make our smallest 'complete-out-of-the-box' > > image 2GB big'. > > > > The biggest gap in terms of 'complete-out-of-the-box' is OpenOffice. > Including that brings us up to around 850M or so. But isn't this just because of the 3 million language packages provided ? Could the size kept small by providing uni-language or language-group spins ? Just a thought Lars ------------------------------ Message: 10 Date: Thu, 5 Nov 2009 15:50:01 -0500 From: Bill Nottingham notting@redhat.com Subject: Re: Desktop Live DVD:  diff To: Discussions about development for the Fedora desktop     fedora-desktop-list@redhat.com Message-ID: 20091105205000.GA2428@nostromo.devel.redhat.com Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Lars Herrmann (herrmann@redhat.com) said: > But isn't this just because of the 3 million language packages > provided ? Could the size kept small by providing uni-language or > language-group spins ? That explodes the testing matrix, though. (And makes something that needs to support some superset of languages a mess.) Bill ------------------------------ Message: 11 Date: Thu, 5 Nov 2009 21:50:17 +0100 From: drago01 drago01@gmail.com Subject: Re: Desktop Live DVD: diff To: Discussions about development for the Fedora desktop     fedora-desktop-list@redhat.com Message-ID:     f6ca9fed0911051250y76f42f9ap7dc230eed7c687fe@mail.gmail.com Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 On Thu, Nov 5, 2009 at 9:47 PM, Lars Herrmann herrmann@redhat.com wrote: > Am Donnerstag, den 05.11.2009, 14:56 -0500 schrieb Matthias Clasen: >> On Thu, 2009-11-05 at 11:55 -0800, Adam Williamson wrote: >> >> > I'm not sure I like the idea, if the idea is 'stop doing a small >> > functional live image and make our smallest 'complete-out-of-the-box' >> > image 2GB big'. >> > >> >> The biggest gap in terms of 'complete-out-of-the-box' is OpenOffice. >> Including that brings us up to around 850M or so. > > But isn't this just because of the 3 million language packages > provided ? Could the size kept small by providing uni-language or > language-group spins ? > > Just a thought Asking users to install random language packs isn't a good user experience, and if the only reason for that is "we still don't acknowledge that we are in the 21st century ...." ------------------------------ Message: 12 Date: Thu, 05 Nov 2009 15:52:28 -0500 From: David Zeuthen davidz@redhat.com Subject: Re: Desktop Live DVD: diff To: Discussions about development for the Fedora desktop     fedora-desktop-list@redhat.com Message-ID: 1257454348.17978.16.camel@localhost.localdomain Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8" On Thu, 2009-11-05 at 15:37 -0500, Seth Vidal wrote: > > Also: Remember the days before live CDs? Back then, about 3+ years ago, > > we didn't have any problems asking people to download a whopping six > > CDs. > > > > Well, to be fair we didn't tell them download 6 cds. We told them, if they > were bandwidth-restricted to download the boot.iso and boot and install > via the net talking to a local mirror. Right, that's true. I remember doing that a lot. IIRC, if choosing a minimal install the first two CDs would suffice (if the stars were properly aligned I think - ISTR that it broke at one point). Anyway, people can still do that, right? (honest question, not trolling. I don't really know; these days I never use anything but the Live CD to install.) Thanks, David ------------------------------ Message: 13 Date: Thu, 5 Nov 2009 15:56:22 -0500 (EST) From: Seth Vidal skvidal@fedoraproject.org Subject: Re: Desktop Live DVD: diff To: Discussions about development for the Fedora desktop     fedora-desktop-list@redhat.com Message-ID: alpine.LFD.2.00.0911051556170.9192@localhost.localdomain Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII; format=flowed On Thu, 5 Nov 2009, David Zeuthen wrote: > On Thu, 2009-11-05 at 15:37 -0500, Seth Vidal wrote: >>> Also: Remember the days before live CDs? Back then, about 3+ years ago, >>> we didn't have any problems asking people to download a whopping six >>> CDs. >>> >> >> Well, to be fair we didn't tell them download 6 cds. We told them, if they >> were bandwidth-restricted to download the boot.iso and boot and install >> via the net talking to a local mirror. > > Right, that's true. I remember doing that a lot. IIRC, if choosing a > minimal install the first two CDs would suffice (if the stars were > properly aligned I think - ISTR that it broke at one point). > > Anyway, people can still do that, right? (honest question, not trolling. > I don't really know; these days I never use anything but the Live CD to > install.) yep. In f11 it's called netinst. Fedora-11-i386-netinst.iso for example. it's 177MB. Which is pretty light weight. It has stage2 on it iirc. -sv ------------------------------ Message: 14 Date: Thu, 05 Nov 2009 21:58:45 +0100 From: Lars Herrmann herrmann@redhat.com Subject: Re: Desktop Live DVD: diff To: Discussions about development for the Fedora desktop     fedora-desktop-list@redhat.com Message-ID: 1257454725.3222.8695.camel@x61.sulz Content-Type: text/plain Am Donnerstag, den 05.11.2009, 21:50 +0100 schrieb drago01: > On Thu, Nov 5, 2009 at 9:47 PM, Lars Herrmann herrmann@redhat.com wrote: > > Am Donnerstag, den 05.11.2009, 14:56 -0500 schrieb Matthias Clasen: > >> On Thu, 2009-11-05 at 11:55 -0800, Adam Williamson wrote: > >> > >> > I'm not sure I like the idea, if the idea is 'stop doing a small > >> > functional live image and make our smallest 'complete-out-of-the-box' > >> > image 2GB big'. > >> > > >> > >> The biggest gap in terms of 'complete-out-of-the-box' is OpenOffice. > >> Including that brings us up to around 850M or so. > > > > But isn't this just because of the 3 million language packages > > provided ? Could the size kept small by providing uni-language or > > language-group spins ? > > > > Just a thought > > Asking users to install random language packs isn't a good user > experience, and if the only reason for that is "we still don't > acknowledge that we are in the 21st century ...." > The point is that it in fact *is* annoying that a significant chunk of space goes to totally irrelevant packages. I am typically installing 3 languages on my system and I am sure this represents a tiny fraction of the user base. North of 90% will never ever use more than one language. And they will know which one they need prior to downloading ;) Having a button in the distro to "add a language" is a useful feature anyway - it's a bit of a pain today if you want to add a language later and have to find out which packages to add. Same goes for removing. But I'm not aware of all implications of course ... Lars ------------------------------ Message: 15 Date: Thu, 05 Nov 2009 16:20:30 -0500 From: Matthias Clasen mclasen@redhat.com Subject: Re: Desktop Live DVD:  diff To: Discussions about development for the Fedora desktop     fedora-desktop-list@redhat.com Message-ID: 1257456030.2589.0.camel@planemask Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8" On Thu, 2009-11-05 at 21:47 +0100, Lars Herrmann wrote: > Am Donnerstag, den 05.11.2009, 14:56 -0500 schrieb Matthias Clasen: > > On Thu, 2009-11-05 at 11:55 -0800, Adam Williamson wrote: > > > > > I'm not sure I like the idea, if the idea is 'stop doing a small > > > functional live image and make our smallest 'complete-out-of-the-box' > > > image 2GB big'. > > > > > > > The biggest gap in terms of 'complete-out-of-the-box' is OpenOffice. > > Including that brings us up to around 850M or so. > > But isn't this just because of the 3 million language packages > provided ? Could the size kept small by providing uni-language or > language-group spins ? > > Just a thought > I did that experiment back in August. Here is what I wrote back then: > Replacing abiword with the entire openoffice suite blows the iso > size up to 825M. > > Replacing abiword with just oowriter still blows the iso size up > to 820M. > > This is without any openoffice lang packs. ------------------------------ Message: 16 Date: Thu, 5 Nov 2009 17:56:29 -0500 From: "Paul W. Frields" stickster@gmail.com Subject: Re: Desktop Live DVD:  diff To: fedora-desktop-list@redhat.com Message-ID: 20091105225629.GC2894@victoria.internal.frields.org Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii On Thu, Nov 05, 2009 at 01:35:26PM -0500, David Zeuthen wrote: > On Thu, 2009-11-05 at 13:24 -0500, Bill Nottingham wrote: > > David Zeuthen (davidz@redhat.com) said: > > > On Thu, 2009-11-05 at 14:33 +0530, Rahul Sundaram wrote: > > > > The image size is 1022 M. > > > > > > This is likely too big, remember drive manufacturers don't really use > > > units like KiB MiB or GiB - they use 1K = 1000, 1M = 1,000,000 and 1G = > > > 1,000,000,000 - e.g. the SI units. > > > > > > It seems to me that most 1GB USB keys have a size of 1GB = 1,000M = > > > 1,000,000,000 bytes. Some are 1024MB (1024,000,000,000 bytes), some may > > > be a bit smaller (e.g. "value-adds" like the Sandisk U3 "CD-ROM") while > > > some may actually be 1024 MiB (1,099,511,627,776 bytes). It varies. > > > > Moreover, the closer you get to the full size, the less space you'll > > have for any overlay. > > Good point. A quick search on the Internet suggests that 2GB sticks can > be had for < $10. So maybe we should just bite the bullet and target 2GB > keys and do a 1.7GB (1,700,000,000 bytes) image leaving ~300MB free for > the overlay. > > Then leaves both wiggle-room and also enables us to include *compelling* > stuff like Ogg Theora videos featuring Shadowman etc etc. The price differences between 1GB and 2GB sticks seem minimal (and you can find some 2GB cheaper than 1GB, of course).  I lobbied purposely with the Red Hat Summit organizers to make sure we gave out Fedora on 2GB keys so that we could have a sizable key. -- Paul W. Frields                                http://paul.frields.org/   gpg fingerprint: 3DA6 A0AC 6D58 FEC4 0233  5906 ACDB C937 BD11 3717   http://redhat.com/%C2%A0%C2%A0%C2%A0-%C2%A0 -  -  -   http://pfrields.fedorapeople.org/   irc.freenode.net: stickster @ #fedora-docs, #fedora-devel, #fredlug ------------------------------ Message: 17 Date: Fri, 06 Nov 2009 11:10:14 +0200 From: Nicu Buculei nicu_fedora@nicubunu.ro Subject: Re: Desktop Live DVD:  diff To: Discussions about development for the Fedora desktop     fedora-desktop-list@redhat.com Message-ID: 4AF3E7F6.9070106@nicubunu.ro Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8; format=flowed On 11/05/2009 10:34 PM, David Zeuthen wrote: > > Also, no-one says we _must_ include useless crap or even use all of the > space. And no-one says the space we're going to use is to be used for > software. I've advocated earlier that we should try and promote things > like Ogg Theora. For example, we could include > >    http://www.bigbuckbunny.org/ + 1 million > >> I'm not sure I like the idea, if the idea is 'stop doing a small >> functional live image and make our smallest 'complete-out-of-the-box' >> image 2GB big'. > > No one says the desktop image should be "our smallest > 'complete-out-of-the-box' image". In fact, I think it would be a mistake > to say it should be. How about a middle ground? Most of the people will just try and see what is about, they will not use write overlay, so we can target the image at 1 GB (999 MB), to cover their case. Advanced users, who will made use of the write overlay, will surely write the image on a 2GB or large drive, having the option to set the overlay as large as they want and the possibility to throw in other useful things, like a persistent home. -- nicu :: http://nicubunu.ro :: http://nicubunu.blogspot.com/ ------------------------------ Message: 18 Date: Fri, 6 Nov 2009 18:10:16 +0530 From: onkar mirajkar odmirajkar@gmail.com Subject: Re: Desktop Live DVD: diff To: Discussions about development for the Fedora desktop     fedora-desktop-list@redhat.com Message-ID:     3492acc30911060440m48a62286qf58f18beec83b46d@mail.gmail.com Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Hi, Few days back I created a Ubnutu live USB. But I recognize that its not good for my day to day use as it doesnot allow me to add my own packages like VLC. Is this a general problem with all Live USB as there are live dvd creator which allows me to add my own packages. I think its good idea to add this feature as USB is read wirte device not read only like DVD so that user can install their own software and customize thier live USB. Thanks, Onkar 2009/11/6 Nicu Buculei nicu_fedora@nicubunu.ro > On 11/05/2009 10:34 PM, David Zeuthen wrote: > >> >> Also, no-one says we _must_ include useless crap or even use all of the >> space. And no-one says the space we're going to use is to be used for >> software. I've advocated earlier that we should try and promote things >> like Ogg Theora. For example, we could include >> >>   http://www.bigbuckbunny.org/ >> > > + 1 million > > > >> I'm not sure I like the idea, if the idea is 'stop doing a small >>> functional live image and make our smallest 'complete-out-of-the-box' >>> image 2GB big'. >>> >> >> No one says the desktop image should be "our smallest >> 'complete-out-of-the-box' image". In fact, I think it would be a mistake >> to say it should be. >> > > How about a middle ground? Most of the people will just try and see what is > about, they will not use write overlay, so we can target the image at 1 GB > (999 MB), to cover their case. Advanced users, who will made use of the > write overlay, will surely write the image on a 2GB or large drive, having > the option to set the overlay as large as they want and the possibility to > throw in other useful things, like a persistent home. > > -- > nicu :: http://nicubunu.ro :: http://nicubunu.blogspot.com/ > > > -- > Fedora-desktop-list mailing list > Fedora-desktop-list@redhat.com > https://www.redhat.com/mailman/listinfo/fedora-desktop-list > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... 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