Hello,
First, I apologise to fedora-trans-list to mail this message again.
I have been translating fedora in French for few months only and i'm facing problems with contributors' translations.
I used to translate po files, and, as we were very few French translators (2 *only*), it was quite easy to ask for the mate to read over the translation and to know what he is actually doing.
However, now that I have less free time and now that we are more than 2 translating Fedora into French, when I take the initiative to translate 2 or 3 missing or recently added strings, I met bad translation and mistakes.
There are few problems in our translation process :
- People are not communicating by mailing list. The fact is that translation is often seen as a lonely activity and that you don't need any response from someone to take a po file and translate it. There is no way to know who is working on what. - The status page [1] are useful to know what has been translated, but useless to know what has been read over. - People do not use the reservation system "take" button and if they do, they don't update they reservation.
What I'm planning to do : take every po file, and read over them until FC7 comes out. This is the only way I found to avoid bad translation in Fedora.
Any advice to help out ?
As we are changing lots of things on Fedora, wouldn't be the time to improve the translation process : - we shouldn't give anymore rights to upload CVS translation. CVS should only be accessible in read only and only people that read translation over should be allowed to update po to the CVS. - as there is mailing list for modifications on CVS docs, we need a mailing list as well for each language po modification. Mailing list are easy to set up and do not consume any ressources. - we could also use a system allowing to add a status of what has to be done with a po file : "waiting for translation", "waiting for being read over", "translation in progress" for example, are status that could be used.
just my 2 cents.
[1] http://i18n.redhat.com/cgi-bin/i18n-status
Le jeudi 23 novembre 2006 à 11:03 +0100, Xavier Conde Rueda a écrit :
Hi Thomas,
I have been translating fedora in French for few months only and i'm facing problems with contributors' translations.
I used to translate po files, and, as we were very few French translators (2 *only*), it was quite easy to ask for the mate to read over the translation and to know what he is actually doing.
However, now that I have less free time and now that we are more than 2 translating Fedora into French, when I take the initiative to translate 2 or 3 missing or recently added strings, I met bad translation and mistakes.
There are few problems in our translation process :
- People are not communicating by mailing list. The fact is that
translation is often seen as a lonely activity and that you don't need any response from someone to take a po file and translate it. There is no way to know who is working on what.
-- This is bad management. You should fix that by yourself. As the project leader, you should query the status of translations. On voluntary projects it's important to track the status of other's work, since they don't have an economical commitment, also people is very selective on what they spend their free time.
I am not a project leader. I am just someone who learned English at university and who just see mistakes more than others tranlsators do.
- The status page [1] are useful to know what has been translated, but
useless to know what has been read over.
- People do not use the reservation system "take" button and if they do,
they don't update they reservation.
-- You should assign translations to translators. Only one person should have commit access for a given project. When people wants to translate something, send them the PO file. You should manage by yourself who is doing what. A simple spreadsheet will do.
How to step back with people who already have all the rights ? I can't *obviously* take them this right back, nor I want to. I don't want to be the one who decide, because I believe people are able enough to decide for themselves. If people want to translate something, then they do it, it's their choice. Nobody should have a word about what they would want to do, as long as it is good for the Project.
Anyway, I find the take button completely useless, not to mention the bunch of mails saying it's going to expire soon. I suppose people doesn't want to get 5 mails each time they take a module, so they do it once, but not twice :). It's not good for synchronization.
So do I.
What I'm planning to do : take every po file, and read over them until FC7 comes out. This is the only way I found to avoid bad translation in Fedora.
Any advice to help out ?
As we are changing lots of things on Fedora, wouldn't be the time to improve the translation process :
- we shouldn't give anymore rights to upload CVS translation. CVS should
only be accessible in read only and only people that read translation over should be allowed to update po to the CVS.
-- As I said, only project leaders should have commit access, not everybody.
- as there is mailing list for modifications on CVS docs, we need a
mailing list as well for each language po modification. Mailing list are easy to set up and do not consume any ressources.
-- There is a commits list you can subscribe, it will do for you. But it's the same thing, only you should be committing. Personally, for Catalan we don't need it. Not sure we need it for every language.
The problem of *leader* is that one day, I may not be as available as other people would like me to. We are facing this problem in France, and the leader of the GNOME translation Project is not very well seen by people. The French GNOME community is divided and does not work to its full capabilities.
- we could also use a system allowing to add a status of what has to be
done with a po file : "waiting for translation", "waiting for being read over", "translation in progress" for example, are status that could be used.
-- If Fedora provides a full web translation management environment it would be great. However, a wiki page could be used, where each contributor writes down the status of their current translation.
If they do so, they could actually mail the list, that they don't do. Why would they write it on a wiki page ? I think we are more at a state where people should be obliged to tell the status of their translation to commit it.
Regards!
just my 2 cents.
[1] http://i18n.redhat.com/cgi-bin/i18n-status
Thomas Canniot http://fedoraproject.org/wiki/ThomasCanniot
Hi,
2006/11/23, Thomas Canniot thomas.canniot@laposte.net:
Le jeudi 23 novembre 2006 à 11:03 +0100, Xavier Conde Rueda a écrit :
Hi Thomas,
I have been translating fedora in French for few months only and i'm facing problems with contributors' translations.
I used to translate po files, and, as we were very few French translators (2 *only*), it was quite easy to ask for the mate to read over the translation and to know what he is actually doing.
However, now that I have less free time and now that we are more than 2 translating Fedora into French, when I take the initiative to translate 2 or 3 missing or recently added strings, I met bad translation and mistakes.
There are few problems in our translation process :
- People are not communicating by mailing list. The fact is that
translation is often seen as a lonely activity and that you don't need any response from someone to take a po file and translate it. There is no way to know who is working on what.
-- This is bad management. You should fix that by yourself. As the project leader, you should query the status of translations. On voluntary projects it's important to track the status of other's work, since they don't have an economical commitment, also people is very selective on what they spend their free time.
I am not a project leader. I am just someone who learned English at university and who just see mistakes more than others tranlsators do.
- The status page [1] are useful to know what has been translated, but
useless to know what has been read over.
- People do not use the reservation system "take" button and if they do,
they don't update they reservation.
-- You should assign translations to translators. Only one person should have commit access for a given project. When people wants to translate something, send them the PO file. You should manage by yourself who is doing what. A simple spreadsheet will do.
How to step back with people who already have all the rights ? I can't *obviously* take them this right back, nor I want to. I don't want to be the one who decide, because I believe people are able enough to decide for themselves. If people want to translate something, then they do it, it's their choice.
-- There is nothing bad with telling people what should translate, it's the leader responsability to assign the work rightly.
Nobody should have a word about what they would want to do, as long as it is good for the Project.
-- But you are saying it's not good for your project, aren't you? You say people goes their way and it is affecting negatively French Fedora. I don't see project management as a dictatorship, unless contributors are unhappy with the dictator. It is called benevolent dictatorship. So you are unhappy with the project leader. He/she is commiting work that hasn't enough quality. I'm right?
I don't see how are you gonna fix it by taking a look at what has been commited. The usual way of working is translating->reviewing->fixing->commit. If people is commiting without good reviewing, then you must tell them. If you consider you should have a word on translation quality, then you should ask for getting that role assigned to you.
Anyway, I find the take button completely useless, not to mention the bunch of mails saying it's going to expire soon. I suppose people doesn't want to get 5 mails each time they take a module, so they do it once, but not twice :). It's not good for synchronization.
So do I.
What I'm planning to do : take every po file, and read over them until FC7 comes out. This is the only way I found to avoid bad translation in Fedora.
Any advice to help out ?
As we are changing lots of things on Fedora, wouldn't be the time to improve the translation process :
- we shouldn't give anymore rights to upload CVS translation. CVS should
only be accessible in read only and only people that read translation over should be allowed to update po to the CVS.
-- As I said, only project leaders should have commit access, not everybody.
- as there is mailing list for modifications on CVS docs, we need a
mailing list as well for each language po modification. Mailing list are easy to set up and do not consume any ressources.
-- There is a commits list you can subscribe, it will do for you. But it's the same thing, only you should be committing. Personally, for Catalan we don't need it. Not sure we need it for every language.
The problem of *leader* is that one day, I may not be as available as other people would like me to. We are facing this problem in France, and the leader of the GNOME translation Project is not very well seen by people. The French GNOME community is divided and does not work to its full capabilities.
- we could also use a system allowing to add a status of what has to be
done with a po file : "waiting for translation", "waiting for being read over", "translation in progress" for example, are status that could be used.
-- If Fedora provides a full web translation management environment it would be great. However, a wiki page could be used, where each contributor writes down the status of their current translation.
If they do so, they could actually mail the list, that they don't do. Why would they write it on a wiki page ?
-- Why they would change the status on the status page, then :)?
As I see from what you are saying, the main problem is people isn't using the mail list. This should be adressed as the main problem inside your project.
I think we are more at a state where people should be obliged to tell the status of their translation to commit it.
Good luck! I hope your translation team improves Fedora.
Regards!
just my 2 cents.
[1] http://i18n.redhat.com/cgi-bin/i18n-status
Thomas Canniot http://fedoraproject.org/wiki/ThomasCanniot
-- Thomas Canniot http://fedoraproject.org/wiki/ThomasCanniot
-- Fedora-trans-list mailing list Fedora-trans-list@redhat.com https://www.redhat.com/mailman/listinfo/fedora-trans-list
Hello~
Thomas Canniot wrote:
There are few problems in our translation process :
- People are not communicating by mailing list. The fact is that
translation is often seen as a lonely activity and that you don't need any response from someone to take a po file and translate it. There is no way to know who is working on what.
How are they communicating then? If they do not communicate at all, but going their own, then you can ask them, no? Assuming the mailing list pointed here is fedora-trans-fr, keep posting then people can have a chance to learn proper way. It might be also useful to copy and paste the diff, so others can easily proofread. This is what fedora-trans-ja doing and I've learn it from there.
- The status page [1] are useful to know what has been translated, but
useless to know what has been read over.
- People do not use the reservation system "take" button and if they do,
they don't update they reservation.
Aman and Chester: PING! I thought that people can not commit without clicking "take" button. Can you take a look?
What I'm planning to do : take every po file, and read over them until FC7 comes out. This is the only way I found to avoid bad translation in Fedora.
Howabout being the maintainer, so that the mail will be sent to you if someone translated the file.
cheers noriko
Noriko Mizumoto 提到:
Hello~
- The status page [1] are useful to know what has been translated, but
useless to know what has been read over.
- People do not use the reservation system "take" button and if they do,
they don't update they reservation.
Aman and Chester: PING! I thought that people can not commit without clicking "take" button. Can you take a look?
I thought so, too. Sorry I can't check. I have more rights then ordinary users. Aman? Do you konw?
What I'm planning to do : take every po file, and read over them until FC7 comes out. This is the only way I found to avoid bad translation in Fedora.
Howabout being the maintainer, so that the mail will be sent to you if someone translated the file.
cheers noriko
-- Fedora-trans-list mailing list Fedora-trans-list@redhat.com https://www.redhat.com/mailman/listinfo/fedora-trans-list
Noriko Mizumoto ਨੇ ਲਿਖਿਆ:
Hello~
Thomas Canniot wrote:
There are few problems in our translation process :
- People are not communicating by mailing list. The fact is that
translation is often seen as a lonely activity and that you don't need any response from someone to take a po file and translate it. There is no way to know who is working on what.
How are they communicating then? If they do not communicate at all, but going their own, then you can ask them, no? Assuming the mailing list pointed here is fedora-trans-fr, keep posting then people can have a chance to learn proper way. It might be also useful to copy and paste the diff, so others can easily proofread. This is what fedora-trans-ja doing and I've learn it from there.
- The status page [1] are useful to know what has been translated, but
useless to know what has been read over.
- People do not use the reservation system "take" button and if they do,
they don't update they reservation.
Aman and Chester: PING! I thought that people can not commit without clicking "take" button. Can you take a look?
no, this not true, 'Take' button is not very effective, I myself commit to CVS without 'Take' Button.:)
What I'm planning to do : take every po file, and read over them until FC7 comes out. This is the only way I found to avoid bad translation in Fedora.
Howabout being the maintainer, so that the mail will be sent to you if someone translated the file.
this is solution to get information when someone commit or change a file, for which you are Maintainer
regrds
A S Alam ਨੇ ਲਿਖਿਆ:
Noriko Mizumoto ਨੇ ਲਿਖਿਆ:
Hello~
Thomas Canniot wrote:
There are few problems in our translation process :
- People are not communicating by mailing list. The fact is that
translation is often seen as a lonely activity and that you don't need any response from someone to take a po file and translate it. There is no way to know who is working on what.
How are they communicating then? If they do not communicate at all, but going their own, then you can ask them, no? Assuming the mailing list pointed here is fedora-trans-fr, keep posting then people can have a chance to learn proper way. It might be also useful to copy and paste the diff, so others can easily proofread. This is what fedora-trans-ja doing and I've learn it from there.
- The status page [1] are useful to know what has been translated, but
useless to know what has been read over.
- People do not use the reservation system "take" button and if they do,
they don't update they reservation.
Aman and Chester: PING! I thought that people can not commit without clicking "take" button. Can you take a look?
no, this not true, 'Take' button is not very effective, I myself commit to CVS without 'Take' Button.:)
and of course as normal user (with external account)
pe, 2006-11-24 kello 10:07 +1000, Noriko Mizumoto kirjoitti:
Thomas Canniot wrote:
- People do not use the reservation system "take" button and if they do,
they don't update they reservation.
Aman and Chester: PING! I thought that people can not commit without clicking "take" button. Can you take a look?
Just in case everyone has forgotten the old discussions on this list back in 2004; enforcing the "Take" button functionality was critisized a lot by many translators.
Let me quote these two paragraphs by Christian Rose, which pretty well summarize the main problem:
"Since 2000, I've been working from scratch on doing translations for Red Hat and now Fedora, with the goal of keeping them high quality and 100% for every release. [...] We've recieved quite a lot of positive feedback about the quality, too.
Thus it's not really exciting to see that any random bozo can suddenly take over control over a Swedish translation and fill in dirty words. I'm not amused."
In addition, for a typical translation "team" having only a few members, or even only one, clicking a silly button on a page a dozen times to get something committed is complete waste of time.
The Fedora translation project is far from being as translator friendly as it should be. The biggest problem is translations not getting included in packages in time to make it into releases, although translated well in advance. The translator's task should be translating, not writing bug reports about missing -- non-packaged -- translations on a regular basis.
Do not try to make the translation process any more complicated than it is now by reintroducing the mandatory "Take" button, or else e.g. I will find something more useful to do on my spare time.
Regards, Lauri
Lauri Nurmi wrote:
Do not try to make the translation process any more complicated than it is now by reintroducing the mandatory "Take" button, or else e.g. I will find something more useful to do on my spare time.
Regards, Lauri
Strongly agree. Pls do not make it any more complicated. That is all fine right now.
Regards, Joel
Lauri Nurmi wrote:
pe, 2006-11-24 kello 10:07 +1000, Noriko Mizumoto kirjoitti:
Thomas Canniot wrote:
- People do not use the reservation system "take" button and if they do,
they don't update they reservation.
Aman and Chester: PING! I thought that people can not commit without clicking "take" button. Can you take a look?
Just in case everyone has forgotten the old discussions on this list back in 2004; enforcing the "Take" button functionality was critisized a lot by many translators.
Oh yes, I remember now. I am not going to make an objection, nor enforce anything. To me the status page is useful, and I actually am using "Take" button. So that others can see. I don't like to see anyone/anything being criticized.
-
A S Alam -
Chester Cheng -
joel.gump -
Lauri Nurmi -
Noriko Mizumoto -
Thomas Canniot -
Xavi Conde