Today I spent a few hours and created a new and updated version of the Fedora L10n Guide:
https://fedoraproject.org/wiki/L10N/Guide
What's new?
- Re-used a lot of content from the excellent TQSG we had in Docs.
- The content was updated to reflect our new infrastructure. A huge chunk of warnings and questions has gone away, since the new Tx arch handles things transparently, eliminating msgmerge errors, POT files missing etc.
- The FAQ page was also updated & merged at the bottom of the guide, to make sure we keep it up2date.
- The guide was put on the Wiki instead of publican. This will allow us to maintain it live, with more people, more content & translations.
- I suggest to completely remove the docs-based TQSG and focus on having only one guide. This will avoid confusion and the content will always be updated.
Finally, we've been documenting a lot of things on the Transifex Help Pages, which are integrated into the tool itself. We'll be adding more content there, so that translators will have it right at their fingertips.
http://help.transifex.net/user-guide/
Let me know what you think! If you find any errors, just jump in and Edit the page directly!
-d
22.06.2011, 21:48, "Dimitris Glezos" glezos@indifex.com:
Today I spent a few hours and created a new and updated version of the Fedora L10n Guide:
https://fedoraproject.org/wiki/L10N/Guide
What's new?
Re-used a lot of content from the excellent TQSG we had in Docs.
The content was updated to reflect our new infrastructure. A huge chunk of
warnings and questions has gone away, since the new Tx arch handles things transparently, eliminating msgmerge errors, POT files missing etc.
- The FAQ page was also updated & merged at the bottom of the guide, to make
sure we keep it up2date.
- The guide was put on the Wiki instead of publican. This will allow us to
maintain it live, with more people, more content & translations.
- I suggest to completely remove the docs-based TQSG and focus on having only
one guide. This will avoid confusion and the content will always be updated.
Finally, we've been documenting a lot of things on the Transifex Help Pages, which are integrated into the tool itself. We'll be adding more content there, so that translators will have it right at their fingertips.
http://help.transifex.net/user-guide/
Let me know what you think! If you find any errors, just jump in and Edit the page directly!
There's been a lot of steps that must be taken in order to start contributing.
Could we have something nicer, like:
In order to start contributing you need to:
1. Become a member of the community * Create a FAS account * Accept the FPCA 2. Get access to the material to work on * Create a Transifex account * Sign up for the trans mailing list * Send an introduction * Request entrance to the L10n team
Having a pageful of tasks to implement before you actually get to do something is pretty discouraging. That's how I felt at first and that's what I've heard from other people.
Another thing: are GPG keys really used by translators in any task? I've been contributing for two years and never had a need to use it. Can they skip it please?
2011/6/22 Misha Shnurapet shnurapet@fedoraproject.org:
There's been a lot of steps that must be taken in order to start contributing.
Could we have something nicer, like:
In order to start contributing you need to:
- Become a member of the community
* Create a FAS account * Accept the FPCA 2. Get access to the material to work on * Create a Transifex account * Sign up for the trans mailing list * Send an introduction * Request entrance to the L10n team
I totally agree we should make it simpler.
On a related topic, technically, nowadays a translator might even not need to have a FAS account to contribute translations, since the CLA is needed to join a team. However, this is something outside of the abilities of L10n. Probably a topic for the logistics list.
Another thing: are GPG keys really used by translators in any task? I've been contributing for two years and never had a need to use it. Can they skip it please?
If a GPG is not needed to create a FAS account, we can remove those sections. Feel free to test & remove the section.
-d
22.06.2011, 22:40, "Dimitris Glezos" glezos@indifex.com:
2011/6/22 Misha Shnurapet shnurapet@fedoraproject.org;:
There's been a lot of steps that must be taken in order to start contributing.
Could we have something nicer, like:
In order to start contributing you need to:
1. Become a member of the community * Create a FAS account * Accept the FPCA 2. Get access to the material to work on * Create a Transifex account * Sign up for the trans mailing list * Send an introduction * Request entrance to the L10n team
I totally agree we should make it simpler.
On a related topic, technically, nowadays a translator might even not need to have a FAS account to contribute translations, since the CLA is needed to join a team. However, this is something outside of the abilities of L10n. Probably a topic for the logistics list.
I think they would need it to edit wiki.
Another thing: are GPG keys really used by translators in any task? I've been contributing for two years and never had a need to use it. Can they skip it please?
If a GPG is not needed to create a FAS account, we can remove those sections. Feel free to test & remove the section.
I created an account "testusor", and the system asked to sign CLA only. GPG isn't mentioned on "My Account" page. So, the keys creation could be omitted to make it shorter.
Wed, 22 Jun 2011 15:48:49 +0300 було написано Dimitris Glezos glezos@indifex.com:
<snip>
What's new?
- Re-used a lot of content from the excellent TQSG we had in Docs.
- The content was updated to reflect our new infrastructure. A huge
chunk of warnings and questions has gone away, since the new Tx arch handles things transparently, eliminating msgmerge errors, POT files missing etc.
- The FAQ page was also updated & merged at the bottom of the guide, to
make sure we keep it up2date.
- The guide was put on the Wiki instead of publican. This will allow us
to maintain it live, with more people, more content & translations.
- I suggest to completely remove the docs-based TQSG and focus on having
only one guide. This will avoid confusion and the content will always be updated.
Hi!
Thank you for this wonderful guide.
Can it be released in more translation friendly format than raw wiki?
Are the any plans to use some translation wiki extension (TranslateWiki) for Fedora?
If the answer for both is "No", I am afraid that we should choose any two items from "maintain it live, with more people, more content & translations" list to keep.
Thanks in advance for your answers.
Best regards, Yuri
2011/6/22 Yuri Chornoivan yurchor@ukr.net:
Thank you for this wonderful guide.
Can it be released in more translation friendly format than raw wiki?
I'd be happy to help turn it into official Fedora documentation (in PDF/HTML/ePub format) if people would prefer it that way. Let's get the initial version done on the wiki, and then I'll convert it.
-- Jared Smith Fedora Project Leader
Hello,
We can just update the TQSG instead of creating a new document. The TQSG is translation friendly and can be build in several formats (in PDF/HTML/ePub format).
I don't see any good reason to replace it.
Cheers
----- Original Message ----- From: "Jared K. Smith" jsmith@fedoraproject.org To: "Fedora Translation Project List" trans@lists.fedoraproject.org Sent: Thursday, June 23, 2011 12:19:02 AM Subject: Re: Proposal: New Fedora Localization Guide
2011/6/22 Yuri Chornoivan yurchor@ukr.net:
Thank you for this wonderful guide.
Can it be released in more translation friendly format than raw wiki?
I'd be happy to help turn it into official Fedora documentation (in PDF/HTML/ePub format) if people would prefer it that way. Let's get the initial version done on the wiki, and then I'll convert it.
-- Jared Smith Fedora Project Leader -- trans mailing list trans@lists.fedoraproject.org https://admin.fedoraproject.org/mailman/listinfo/trans
24.06.2011, 09:48, "Manuel Ospina" mospina@redhat.com:
Hello,
We can just update the TQSG instead of creating a new document. The TQSG is translation friendly and can be build in several formats (in PDF/HTML/ePub format).
I don't see any good reason to replace it.
Cheers
It will take as much effort to rewrite the old guide as it has taken to write the new one.
----- Original Message ----- From: "Misha Shnurapet" shnurapet@fedoraproject.org To: "Fedora Translation Project List" trans@lists.fedoraproject.org Sent: Friday, June 24, 2011 12:35:53 PM Subject: Re: Proposal: New Fedora Localization Guide
24.06.2011, 09:48, "Manuel Ospina" mospina@redhat.com:
Hello,
We can just update the TQSG instead of creating a new document. The TQSG is translation friendly and can be build in several formats (in PDF/HTML/ePub format).
I don't see any good reason to replace it.
Cheers
It will take as much effort to rewrite the old guide as it has taken to write the new one.
How come? As I see most of the wiki is just a copy and paste from the old one.
On Fri, Jun 24, 2011 at 3:48 AM, Manuel Ospina mospina@redhat.com wrote:
We can just update the TQSG instead of creating a new document. The TQSG is translation friendly and can be build in several formats (in PDF/HTML/ePub format).
I don't see any good reason to replace it.
Please see previous emails. Again, here are some reasons to move to the wiki:
- Wiki receives new content quickly (most times right away). - Docs-based TQSG has outdated content which isn't revoved/updated quickly (note: wiki has this issue as well). - Wiki has lots of content which was never on the TQSG, such as the FAQ, Maintainer guide, list of important modules etc. - Maintaining two sets of docs leads to inconsistencies.
The above issues are proven by history and happen mainly due to having very few volunteers with little time. We have requested for new volunteers repeatedly with no luck.
Let's get things done folks.
Here are some *wrong* reasons to sacrifice above points to stay on TQSG:
- Translations: Not important, wiki works well for 95% of cases. - PDF/ePub: Not important, wiki works well for 95% of cases. - We have found one new volunteer today who promises to keep it updated. - It's what we currently have. - It's pretty. - We have static docs tech, we should use it!!!1!
Yet another bikeshed thread?
-d
Please make possible to link translated pages in the wiki from the base website or make software to detect automatically localized pages in wiki! E.g. from http://fedoraproject.org/bg/get-help to http://fedoraproject.org/wiki/FAQ/bg#How_do_I_install_new_software_on_Fedora...
Best regards Valentin Laskov
----- Original Message ----- From: "Dimitris Glezos" glezos@indifex.com To: "Fedora Translation Project List" trans@lists.fedoraproject.org Sent: Friday, June 24, 2011 10:39 AM Subject: Re: Proposal: New Fedora Localization Guide
| On Fri, Jun 24, 2011 at 3:48 AM, Manuel Ospina mospina@redhat.com wrote: | > We can just update the TQSG instead of creating a new document. The TQSG is | > translation friendly and can be build in several formats (in PDF/HTML/ePub | > format). | > | > I don't see any good reason to replace it. | | Please see previous emails. Again, here are some reasons to move to the wiki: | | - Wiki receives new content quickly (most times right away). | - Docs-based TQSG has outdated content which isn't revoved/updated quickly | (note: wiki has this issue as well). | - Wiki has lots of content which was never on the TQSG, such as the FAQ, | Maintainer guide, list of important modules etc. | - Maintaining two sets of docs leads to inconsistencies. | | The above issues are proven by history and happen mainly due to having very few | volunteers with little time. We have requested for new volunteers repeatedly | with no luck. | | Let's get things done folks. | | Here are some *wrong* reasons to sacrifice above points to stay on TQSG: | | - Translations: Not important, wiki works well for 95% of cases. | - PDF/ePub: Not important, wiki works well for 95% of cases. | - We have found one new volunteer today who promises to keep it updated. | - It's what we currently have. | - It's pretty. | - We have static docs tech, we should use it!!!1! | | Yet another bikeshed thread? | | -d | | | -- | Dimitris Glezos | | Transifex: The Multilingual Publishing Revolution | http://www.transifex.net/ -- http://www.indifex.com/ | -- | trans mailing list | trans@lists.fedoraproject.org | https://admin.fedoraproject.org/mailman/listinfo/trans |
On Fri, Jun 24, 2011 at 1:49 PM, Valentin Laskov laskov@festa.bg wrote:
Please make possible to link translated pages in the wiki from the base website or make software to detect automatically localized pages in wiki! E.g. from http://fedoraproject.org/bg/get-help to http://fedoraproject.org/wiki/FAQ/bg#How_do_I_install_new_software_on_Fedora...
Valentin, please open a ticket to the websites team for this.
https://fedorahosted.org/fedora-websites/report/1
-d
Best regards Valentin Laskov
----- Original Message ----- From: "Dimitris Glezos" glezos@indifex.com To: "Fedora Translation Project List" trans@lists.fedoraproject.org Sent: Friday, June 24, 2011 10:39 AM Subject: Re: Proposal: New Fedora Localization Guide
| On Fri, Jun 24, 2011 at 3:48 AM, Manuel Ospina mospina@redhat.com wrote: | > We can just update the TQSG instead of creating a new document. The TQSG is | > translation friendly and can be build in several formats (in PDF/HTML/ePub | > format). | > | > I don't see any good reason to replace it. | | Please see previous emails. Again, here are some reasons to move to the wiki: | | - Wiki receives new content quickly (most times right away). | - Docs-based TQSG has outdated content which isn't revoved/updated quickly | (note: wiki has this issue as well). | - Wiki has lots of content which was never on the TQSG, such as the FAQ, | Maintainer guide, list of important modules etc. | - Maintaining two sets of docs leads to inconsistencies. | | The above issues are proven by history and happen mainly due to having very few | volunteers with little time. We have requested for new volunteers repeatedly | with no luck. | | Let's get things done folks. | | Here are some *wrong* reasons to sacrifice above points to stay on TQSG: | | - Translations: Not important, wiki works well for 95% of cases. | - PDF/ePub: Not important, wiki works well for 95% of cases. | - We have found one new volunteer today who promises to keep it updated. | - It's what we currently have. | - It's pretty. | - We have static docs tech, we should use it!!!1! | | Yet another bikeshed thread? | | -d | | | -- | Dimitris Glezos | | Transifex: The Multilingual Publishing Revolution | http://www.transifex.net/ -- http://www.indifex.com/ | -- | trans mailing list | trans@lists.fedoraproject.org | https://admin.fedoraproject.org/mailman/listinfo/trans |
-- trans mailing list trans@lists.fedoraproject.org https://admin.fedoraproject.org/mailman/listinfo/trans
Hi guys, Does this guide is still "UNDER CONSTRUCTION"? Could we update the link from fedoraproject.org/wiki/L10N ? Last change was the 2nd of July
https://fedoraproject.org/wiki/L10N/Guide
16.08.2011, 17:03, "Kévin Raymond" shaiton@fedoraproject.org:
Hi guys, Does this guide is still "UNDER CONSTRUCTION"? Could we update the link from fedoraproject.org/wiki/L10N ? Last change was the 2nd of July
If it's OK, I would replace the current guide. The new version passed the draft point quite a while ago. Minor improvements could be done during actual use.
On Tue, Aug 16, 2011 at 12:18 PM, Misha Shnurapet shnurapet@fedoraproject.org wrote:
16.08.2011, 17:03, "Kévin Raymond" shaiton@fedoraproject.org:
Hi guys, Does this guide is still "UNDER CONSTRUCTION"? Could we update the link from fedoraproject.org/wiki/L10N ? Last change was the 2nd of July
If it's OK, I would replace the current guide. The new version passed the draft point quite a while ago. Minor improvements could be done during actual use.
If there are no objections, let's do it.
-d
Thank you to have rewritten a new guide!!
2011/6/22 Yuri Chornoivan yurchor@ukr.net:
<snip> Are the any plans to use some translation wiki extension (TranslateWiki) for Fedora?
There is a module used to translate the wiki https://fedoraproject.org/wiki/FedoraProject:Translating
But it is not really powerful as we don't use any ID version. I like the way it is implemented in the Sugar wiki: http://wiki.sugarlabs.org/go/Translation_Team/Wiki_Translation
Від кого: "KГ©vin Raymond" shaiton@fedoraproject.org
2011/6/22 Yuri Chornoivan yurchor@ukr.net:
<snip> Are the any plans to use some translation wiki extension (TranslateWiki) for Fedora?
There is a module used to translate the wiki https://fedoraproject.org/wiki/FedoraProject:Translating
But it is not really powerful as we don't use any ID version. I like the way it is implemented in the Sugar wiki: http://wiki.sugarlabs.org/go/Translation_Team/Wiki_Translation
The way of KDE UserBase:
http://userbase.kde.org/Translate_a_Page
looks much easier and maintainable for me.
It is not a problem to translate this guide once, it is a big problem to keep the translation up-to-date. I'd rather not translate the things that will hardly be maintained after the first translation round. PO is maintainable enough, but raw wiki is not, imho.
2011/6/22 Yuri Chornoivan yurchor@ukr.net:
Від кого: "KГ©vin Raymond" shaiton@fedoraproject.org
2011/6/22 Yuri Chornoivan yurchor@ukr.net:
<snip> Are the any plans to use some translation wiki extension (TranslateWiki) for Fedora?
There is a module used to translate the wiki https://fedoraproject.org/wiki/FedoraProject:Translating
But it is not really powerful as we don't use any ID version. I like the way it is implemented in the Sugar wiki: http://wiki.sugarlabs.org/go/Translation_Team/Wiki_Translation
The way of KDE UserBase:
http://userbase.kde.org/Translate_a_Page
looks much easier and maintainable for me.
It is not a problem to translate this guide once, it is a big problem to keep the translation up-to-date. I'd rather not translate the things that will hardly be maintained after the first translation round. PO is maintainable enough, but raw wiki is not, imho.
that's the use of id version. Translators should understand English. There is no really need to get it translated. I think that wiki page is really good.
I totally agree with Yuri Chornoivan. Using TranslateWiki extension or the way KDE UserBase is better for wiki translation process.
For example, small translation teams (less than 3 persons) like us, Traditional Chinese team, don't have many man-powers and much man-time to keep track of every new change on wiki, while there are still other translation tasks on Transifex.
If wiki is better translatable, it will be awesome!
Translators should understand English. There is no really need to get it translated.
I agree with this opinion. We don't really need to get it translated, as L10N contributors should understand English. They (usually) translate stuff from English to their native language.
-- Gelei Máté http://mgelei.eu PGP: 69DF3504
On Thu, Jun 23, 2011 at 9:24 AM, Mate Gelei geleimate@fedoraproject.org wrote:
Translators should understand English. There is no really need to get it translated.
I agree with this opinion. We don't really need to get it translated, as L10N contributors should understand English. They (usually) translate stuff from English to their native language.
I agree as well. I believe having many contributors and up2date content is more vital.
-d
----- Original Message ----- From: "Yuri Chornoivan" yurchor@ukr.net To: "Fedora Translation Project List" trans@lists.fedoraproject.org Sent: Wednesday, June 22, 2011 9:20 PM Subject: Re: Proposal: New Fedora Localization Guide
It is not a problem to translate this guide once, it is a big problem to keep the translation up-to-date. I'd rather not translate the things that will hardly be maintained after the first translation round. PO is maintainable enough, but raw wiki is not, imho.
You can put the English page in your Watchlist and wiki will send you an e-mail upon page changed. Then you can see the differences between old page and new one and then make corrections. It's good to put page in your language in your watchlist too.
Regards Valentin Laskov
On Thu, Jun 23, 2011 at 8:49 AM, Valentin Laskov laskov@festa.bg wrote:
----- Original Message ----- From: "Yuri Chornoivan" yurchor@ukr.net To: "Fedora Translation Project List" trans@lists.fedoraproject.org Sent: Wednesday, June 22, 2011 9:20 PM Subject: Re: Proposal: New Fedora Localization Guide
It is not a problem to translate this guide once, it is a big problem to keep the translation up-to-date. I'd rather not translate the things that will hardly be maintained after the first translation round. PO is maintainable enough, but raw wiki is not, imho.
You can put the English page in your Watchlist and wiki will send you an e-mail upon page changed. Then you can see the differences between old page and new one and then make corrections. It's good to put page in your language in your watchlist too.
But only you will know the fact that this specific translated page is out of date in this case. Ok, you could add in the locale translation mailing list watchlist, but if nobody update it, new guys won't use the last version.
It's still a solution, which could be choosen from specific L10n team.
The guide was put on the Wiki instead of publican. This will allow us to maintain it live, with more people, more content & translations.
I suggest to completely remove the docs-based TQSG and focus on having only one guide. This will avoid confusion and the content will always be updated.
FYI, Translators who are interested in editing/updating TQSG are always welcomed. What you need is just to join docs team and apply docs-writers group for obtaining right permission. He/she is also able to publish the English version just updated straight away in html/pdf, by applying docs-publishers group.
Translators are able to translate up-to-date POs via transifex. Any translator who is the member of docs-publishers group can also publish the translated version whenever he/she likes.
noriko
-
Cheng-Chia Tseng -
Dimitris Glezos -
Jared K. Smith -
Kévin Raymond -
Manuel Ospina -
Misha Shnurapet -
Máté Gelei -
Noriko Mizumoto -
Valentin Laskov -
Yuri Chornoivan