четвер, 4 жовтня 2018 р. 23:16:39 EEST Игорь Горбунов написано:

So how they could be translated?

Best wishes, Igor

We should find somebody with commit rights and knowledge of Publican workflow who will do the publications each and every release.

The text of Release Notes is rapidly changes between the RCs (typos, additions, rewriting) and even after the release, so it is uneasy job.

After that, we should ask Piotr Drąg to enable translations again.

Best regards, Yuri

чт, 4 окт. 2018 г. в 23:03, Yuri Chornoivan yurchor@ukr.net:

...

четвер, 4 жовтня 2018 р. 22:58:35 EEST Игорь Горбунов написано:

...

HI, All! It's strange, but Fedora Release Notes (

https://fedora.zanata.org/project/view/fedora-release-notes/versions?dswid =9>

...

931. are still read-only.

May be I've missed something and they are available elsewhere?

Best wishes,

 Igor Gorbounov

Hi,

Nobody volunteered to publish translations on the Docs team side (as well as for the rest of the doc translations). Thus it was decided to make them read- only.

Best regards, Yuri

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Sorry one thing to add;

After that, we should ask Piotr Drąg to enable translations again.

Yup, he is always helpful for all translators. I am just trying to take a load off our hero :-)

noriko

On 2018/10/05 6:35, Yuri Chornoivan wrote:

четвер, 4 жовтня 2018 р. 23:16:39 EEST Игорь Горбунов написано:

...

So how they could be translated?

Best wishes, Igor

We should find somebody with commit rights and knowledge of Publican workflow who will do the publications each and every release.

The text of Release Notes is rapidly changes between the RCs (typos, additions, rewriting) and even after the release, so it is uneasy job.

After that, we should ask Piotr Drąg to enable translations again.

Best regards, Yuri

...

чт, 4 окт. 2018 г. в 23:03, Yuri Chornoivan yurchor@ukr.net:

...

четвер, 4 жовтня 2018 р. 22:58:35 EEST Игорь Горбунов написано:

...

HI, All! It's strange, but Fedora Release Notes (

https://fedora.zanata.org/project/view/fedora-release-notes/versions?dswid =9>

...

931. are still read-only.

May be I've missed something and they are available elsewhere?

Best wishes,

  Igor Gorbounov

Hi,

Nobody volunteered to publish translations on the Docs team side (as well as for the rest of the doc translations). Thus it was decided to make them read- only.

Best regards, Yuri

---

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---

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On 2018/10/05 15:10, Jean-Baptiste wrote:

It was true, but isn't anymore, the documentation team was using publican (XML based) and now uses Antara (asciidoc based). The current projects in Zanata refers to the XML ones, so no need to unlock them.

Hi Jean Baptiste

Thank you for working hard for the team. Now I am feeling fear that many important things are moving forward in the dark without any interaction with many of translators here. Could you mind pause a bit?

I'm working with the docs team to enable translations, some information are there: https://pagure.io/fedora-docs/design-documents

We should be able to translate documentations of the release notes by the release. Adam and I are working on this almost everyday.

I have a few questions.

First, Antra can't deal with zanata? If it can, it is best to keep using zanata for a while until everything to be cleared and confirmed. if it can't, any background what made docs team to move from publican to antra?

Second, I would like to know clear reason/cause if any move our platform to somewhere is really required?

1)If it is because the translators wish to have better featured platform, please carry balloting system in order to make a decision as a whole translation team. Every language team should have a chance to say yes or no.

2) If it is because it has to happen due to zanata issue, then the authority (redhat or council) should make official announcement for us and share their expectation to us. If the expectation is "move platform", then no longer needs balloting system, and it places us better position in order to discuss with devel team.

If you go in the l10n repositories, you'll see Weblate commits. I used it for my tests and will propose the community to take the opportunity to test the tool for a few days. Anyway, we made sure the process is platform agnostic.

If you want to have a close follow up of the progress of this, go to the fedora docs on telegram or irc. I'll come back here to ask for testers.

Before testing, as said, we should go through the steps of "clarify the situation" and "identify whether we move or stay zanata". In case we DECIDE(1) or NEED(2) to move, then we can move forward to PLAN it, such as "list all possible tools (incl. weblate)", "evaluate/test the tools listed", "vote", "approach devel team", etc.

Please let me press this point, the hardest part in entire process, is convincing devel team. There were 900 translators of 90+ language teams, 70 packages with associated developers, 29 books with associated authors and web team, all had to agree and take action for the move last time. Especially every developers have to setup their repository from scratch again. We lost certain number of translators and developers when moving from transifex to zanata.

Therefore, we better gather all the necessary information first (rationalizing phase) and develop a plan (planning phase) in written form, then implement the plan (action phase) in order to minimize any loss.

my 2 cents

noriko

On 2018/10/05 20:48, Jean-Baptiste Holcroft wrote:

On 05/10/2018 10:40, Noriko Mizumoto wrote:

...

Hi Jean Baptiste

Thank you for working hard for the team. Now I am feeling fear that many important things are moving forward in the dark without any interaction with many of translators here. Could you mind pause a bit?

Yes, of course! I'm afraid this is like any project, if the project is working on the internationalization process and we are interested in, we'll find information in this project mailing lists/tools. Sometimes we have dedicated people for cross-project coordination, but time for coordination really is an issue... I personally tried but don't have much time for now.

It is not something like add-on feature or package starting from small-mid size to current platform but possible replacement as larger scale to happen in short window, which directly impact entire translation team activity, as well most of the parts of fedora project which use translation from us. In this way, I see it, not like any other project.

...

First, Antra can't deal with zanata? If it can, it is best to keep using zanata for a while until everything to be cleared and confirmed. if it can't, any background what made docs team to move from publican to antra?

Antara is a documentation tool, it isn't connected to any translation platform. I don't feel like to be the right person to explain why the docs team moved to Antara. They decided it publicly, published it, it works. Is there an issue with that?

Yes, it is critical issue. As you said, Antra isn't connected to any translation platform, then we are no longer able to translate release notes and any other documents via Zanata, our platform. What is going on?

...

Second, I would like to know clear reason/cause if any move our platform to somewhere is really required?

...

If you go in the l10n repositories, you'll see Weblate commits. I used it for my tests and will propose the community to take the opportunity to test the tool for a few days. Anyway, we made sure the process is platform agnostic.

If you want to have a close follow up of the progress of  this, go to the fedora docs on telegram or irc. I'll come back here to ask for testers.

Before testing, as said, we should go through the steps of "clarify the situation" and "identify whether we move or stay zanata". In case we DECIDE(1) or NEED(2) to move, then we can move forward to PLAN it, such as "list all possible tools (incl. weblate)", "evaluate/test the tools listed", "vote", "approach devel team", etc.

We can imagine multiple ways to discuss the point, but let's not take it as a long-term decision, but more as a short-term opportunity to see something else.

Having time and skills to tests such things isn't so easy. Only gathering translation team leader in a meeting is really hard. We often had more skilled internationalization people in our meetings than translators.

Did we? my memory says that majority of our irc meeting attendees were translators, having a few i18n and other team members who were willing to support us.

The hosting of Zanata in our infrastructure is in discussion since the beginning, and never worked. So having skilled administrators also is really hard.

I never know there was discussion of hosting zanata in our infra (supposed fedora-infra). It was part of the plan as the condition that zanata provides their own infra for fedora-l10n because fedora-infra can't afford.

I started to get interest in learning how to host Weblate more than a year ago. If anyone else with a ready to use translation platform is really welcome to demonstrate it with whatever subject he/she wish. This is testing, so

I have no intention to against your interest to weblate, rather I see it can be good option. But why you so rush into testing? If I go for shopping my car, I would compare as many cars as possible before having test drive with specific car. I am asking here, we are even not knowing whether we should go for shopping car while we have car called "zanata".

...

Please let me press this point, the hardest part in entire process, is convincing devel team. There were 900 translators of 90+ language teams, 70 packages with associated developers, 29 books with associated authors and web team, all had to agree and take action for the move last time. Especially every developers have to setup their repository from scratch again.  We lost certain number of translators and developers when moving from transifex to zanata. Therefore, we better gather all the necessary information first (rationalizing phase) and develop a plan (planning phase) in written form, then implement the plan (action phase) in order to minimize any loss.

Well, we should really plan a migration if we had to change. But here I propose to test another tool to see if we like it or not.

What to you feel, are the reasons of the loss related to the planning?

Unfortunately not feeling, but fact. I experienced this three times, first was elvis to transifex-internal, second transifex-internal to their external, and then third transifex to zanata. Just to compare the number of registered translators from my memory, 4000 translators registered with trans lists was decreased to 2000 at the end of second, then third less than a thousand.

The move will anyway lose/put behind some people even it is agreed decision, this is like painful overhead (sorry not sure this term is appropriate). We still have kept hearing the claims from some packagers "I didn't know at all about zanata", even it was 3 years ago. The loss can happen everywhere, and we pay for it.

Shall we start evaluating Zanata sustainability or assessing the severity first, in order to shape our future outlook?

noriko

On Sun, Oct 7, 2018 at 7:48 AM Jean-Baptiste jean-baptiste@holcroft.fr wrote:

Le 7 octobre 2018 05:07:24 GMT+02:00, Noriko Mizumoto noriko.mizumoto@gmail.com a écrit :

...

Shall we start evaluating Zanata sustainability or assessing the severity first, in order to shape our future outlook?

It is true sustainability of Zanata is now a real question we have to answer...

As a non-translator, my concerns are primarily around our community having the tools they need to be successful and for those tools to be sustainable. To this end, I am trying to have a series of conversations so I can report out what I do know. I am working on scheduling some conversations with folks in the translation community and have emailed several people. I had a personal issue that came up that has slowed that down, but thankfully those problems are now going away.

Related to this, I am also having a conversation with members of the Zanata project about the future of their code base. I am also working with the Red Hat group that supports our current instance of Zanata to determine what their situation is. The current Zanata instance is not run by Fedora Infrastructure, as you may know.

With Alex' email and others, I was curious and the commit history is totally stopped since early September and you can see on LinkedIn the mains devs got recent recommendations letters.

I assume Red Hat decided not to continue with zanata and if true, this is a real issue for us that should have been discussed with the community.

Whatever I like or think the tool fits our needs really is something else, and I swear it is unfortunate the moment I push forward the doc team to support internationalization is not related to this. I talked about it and worked on this with Brian/bex for a really long time now.

I will confirm that Jean-Baptiste has been talking (read yelling, screaming and hassling in a very polite way :D) to me about getting translations working for the docs again. The causes of the failure to do this before now have been legion, but we are now back on track thanks to hard work by Jean-Baptiste and Adam Samalik. The coincidental questions about Zanata have not directly affected their work as the docs interface is translation engine agnostic.

Related, this is a great opportunity for Fedora and the Translation team. Our use of translations with Antora (our docs publishing tool) with be the first or among the first and definitely the largest. We will get to help define in an open way how this process should work. The Antora upstream is watching (and contributing to Fedora) us. I like this as an opportunity for visibility.

Related to this, I have heard several opinions repeated a few times (in no particular order):

* Moving from Transifex to Zanata was painful and hurt our community a lot. We lost both people and projects in the process. We should do whatever it takes to avoid this pain again. * Zanata, while a great tool, was geared for enterprise work that doesn't align well with how our community organizes and works. (reviews gets brought up a lot, but I don't have the full picture). * We do not have a good overview of the status of translations and we need that fixed. I think transstats is working on part of this problem. * We need more community tools in our translation team. Team members cannot easily community, be found, etc. Basic metrics and tools are missing. * We need clearer processes that are easier to follow and we need our onboarding to be as easy as possible.

This is not an exhaustive list.

I guess we need a meeting to discuss what are the current risks with Zanata and the reasons of testing a new tool for a few days/weeks and how to organize it. I think Brian is the guy to tell what's going on internally. And, if it is OK, I would be glad to have him leading the meeting as FCAIC.

I agree that a conversation, ideally in real-time is a good move. I think we should define our goals and see how close we are today. Then and only then can we determine if it is worth exploring changes.

I am happy to guide this conversation and offer my knowledge and opinions where desired. However, I am not a translator and I don't think my opinions are the ones that will guide our final decisions. Therefore, I want this to be a decision that comes from the translation community, not dictated by anyone else. Once we know what we want we can compare that to the realities of the world.

Is there a particular time that works best? It seems that translations doesn't have regular meetings, or at least I haven't found them.

regards,

bex

-- Jean-Baptiste Holcroft _______________________________________________ trans mailing list -- trans@lists.fedoraproject.org To unsubscribe send an email to trans-leave@lists.fedoraproject.org Fedora Code of Conduct: https://getfedora.org/code-of-conduct.html List Guidelines: https://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Mailing_list_guidelines List Archives: https://lists.fedoraproject.org/archives/list/trans@lists.fedoraproject.org