Hi,
Just a few notes about FUEL project in the Fedora and Ukrainian language context.
1. The project aimed to avoid fragmentation introduces fragmentation itself. At least for Ukrainian, TWN translator seems have not even see the Ukrainian translation in the applications mentioned in the contexts ever.
2. The project highly interferes with other works [1-5].
3. The project uses dictionary from the limited set FOSS applications (GNOME, Firefox, OO.o) at least some of which are not even most usable throughout FOSS applications.
4. The project seems aimed just into collecting data without using them for any purpose.
So I propose to make it clear that
1. The project is for Indic languages only (?).
2. The translation for other languages were not approved by any FOSS translation teams and express their authors opinion only.
3. Merge the existing translations with Zanata templates to avoid unnecessary waste of the Fedora translation team efforts.
Best regards, Yuri
[1] http://l10n.kde.org/dictionary/search-translations.php [2] http://pylyglot.org/ [3] http://open-tran.eu/ [4] Project glossaries on https://www.transifex.com/ [5] http://littlesvr.ca/ostd/
Hi Yuri,
Thanks for taking time to go through the FUEL Project!
On Mon, Aug 26, 2013 at 3:58 PM, Yuri Chornoivan yurchor@ukr.net wrote:
Hi,
Just a few notes about FUEL project in the Fedora and Ukrainian language context.
- The project aimed to avoid fragmentation introduces fragmentation
itself. At least for Ukrainian, TWN translator seems have not even see the Ukrainian translation in the applications mentioned in the contexts ever.
TWN translator is one of the contributor community. We are accepting contribution from Zanata as well now. So Ukrainian community can send the translation via zanata or even any individual as well can send the translation to FUEL project directly.
- The project highly interferes with other works [1-5].
Five names you taken, FUEL just tries to come to consistency. As per FUEL Project, we think that an entry like "Save As" should be translated in similar fashion if the context is same across the application and across the platform.
- The project uses dictionary from the limited set FOSS applications
(GNOME, Firefox, OO.o) at least some of which are not even most usable throughout FOSS applications.
This makes it important, as FUEL emphasizes on that the entry coming repeatedly (base register) is more important to be standardized. FUEL is an acronym for "Frequently Used Entries for Localization". So the limited set. And we will also increase its entry base.
- The project seems aimed just into collecting data without using them
for any purpose.
No, its is not true. There are many use cases of FUEL Project. Just an example:
https://git.gnome.org/browse/gedit/log/?qt=grep&q=fuel
So I propose to make it clear that
- The project is for Indic languages only (?).
Not at all
- The translation for other languages were not approved by any FOSS
translation teams and express their authors opinion only.
Correct. But,
We didn't organized any meet-up of community evaluation till now for several languages, so till that time we can say that the is author's/communities' (eg zanata/twn) opinion only.
- Merge the existing translations with Zanata templates to avoid
unnecessary waste of the Fedora translation team efforts.
please clarify!
написане Mon, 26 Aug 2013 14:41:25 +0300, Rajesh Ranjan rajesh672@gmail.com:
Hi Yuri,
Thanks for taking time to go through the FUEL Project!
On Mon, Aug 26, 2013 at 3:58 PM, Yuri Chornoivan yurchor@ukr.net wrote:
Hi,
Just a few notes about FUEL project in the Fedora and Ukrainian language context.
- The project aimed to avoid fragmentation introduces fragmentation
itself. At least for Ukrainian, TWN translator seems have not even see the Ukrainian translation in the applications mentioned in the contexts ever.
TWN translator is one of the contributor community. We are accepting contribution from Zanata as well now. So Ukrainian community can send the translation via zanata or even any individual as well can send the translation to FUEL project directly.
- The project highly interferes with other works [1-5].
Five names you taken, FUEL just tries to come to consistency. As per FUEL Project, we think that an entry like "Save As" should be translated in similar fashion if the context is same across the application and across the platform.
- The project uses dictionary from the limited set FOSS applications
(GNOME, Firefox, OO.o) at least some of which are not even most usable throughout FOSS applications.
This makes it important, as FUEL emphasizes on that the entry coming repeatedly (base register) is more important to be standardized. FUEL is an acronym for "Frequently Used Entries for Localization". So the limited set. And we will also increase its entry base.
- The project seems aimed just into collecting data without using them
for any purpose.
No, its is not true. There are many use cases of FUEL Project. Just an example:
https://git.gnome.org/browse/gedit/log/?qt=grep&q=fuel
So I propose to make it clear that
- The project is for Indic languages only (?).
Not at all
OK. Then could you please switch off Ukrainian to not confuse Ukrainian translators? There are enough open source consistent dictionaries and comprehensive Microsoft and Apple free to use glossaries and TMs for Ukrainian. There is no need for yet another Ukrainian style guide.
- The translation for other languages were not approved by any FOSS
translation teams and express their authors opinion only.
Correct. But,
We didn't organized any meet-up of community evaluation till now for several languages, so till that time we can say that the is author's/communities' (eg zanata/twn) opinion only.
- Merge the existing translations with Zanata templates to avoid
unnecessary waste of the Fedora translation team efforts.
please clarify!
Zanata evaluates the time to translate FUEL templates in hours of Fedora translators time:
FUEL-Desktop: 4.5 hours FUEL-Mobile: 3.3 hours FUEL-Web: 3.5 hours
Total: ~11.3 hours
All translations are now empty.
There is no reason to retranslate this all over again. Just upload the existing translations. If somebody wants to improve them, he/she will do it. That's how all FOSS translation works, imho.
Best regards, Yuri
On 08/26/2013 06:10 PM, Yuri Chornoivan wrote:
OK. Then could you please switch off Ukrainian to not confuse Ukrainian translators? There are enough open source consistent dictionaries and comprehensive Microsoft and Apple free to use glossaries and TMs for Ukrainian. There is no need for yet another Ukrainian style guide.
Perhaps you can import the most consistent one that Fedora Ukrainian localization group follows. If Ukrainian Translation Style Guide is already available and followed by Fedora Ukrainian localization group, it would be good if you can make it available to FUEL community as well.
[...]
Zanata evaluates the time to translate FUEL templates in hours of Fedora translators time:
FUEL-Desktop: 4.5 hours FUEL-Mobile: 3.3 hours FUEL-Web: 3.5 hours
Total: ~11.3 hours
All translations are now empty.
There is no reason to retranslate this all over again. Just upload the existing translations. If somebody wants to improve them, he/she will do it. That's how all FOSS translation works, imho.
Again, respective language communities at Fedora can do this, instead of a non-language member does this.
Best regards, Yuri
Thanks,
Wed, 28 Aug 2013 13:37:09 +0300 було написано Ankit Patel ankit@redhat.com:
On 08/26/2013 06:10 PM, Yuri Chornoivan wrote:
OK. Then could you please switch off Ukrainian to not confuse Ukrainian translators? There are enough open source consistent dictionaries and comprehensive Microsoft and Apple free to use glossaries and TMs for Ukrainian. There is no need for yet another Ukrainian style guide.
Perhaps you can import the most consistent one that Fedora Ukrainian localization group follows. If Ukrainian Translation Style Guide is already available and followed by Fedora Ukrainian localization group, it would be good if you can make it available to FUEL community as well.
The guide is here (and the linked pages):
http://docs.linux.org.ua/%D0%9F%D0%B5%D1%80%D0%B5%D0%BA%D0%BB%D0%B0%D0%B4%D0...
General dictionary with no obligations on how to translate items in GNOME or Firefox :) :
http://docs.linux.org.ua/%D0%9F%D0%B5%D1%80%D0%B5%D0%BA%D0%BB%D0%B0%D0%B4%D0...
KDE translation guide:
http://docs.linux.org.ua/%D0%9F%D0%B5%D1%80%D0%B5%D0%BA%D0%BB%D0%B0%D0%B4%D0...
Just want to say that it seems to me that it is better not touch Ukrainian part of FUEL because there were no claims from Ukrainian translation community to create such project. I am KDE coordinator and noone asking me to create such projects. There are existing and well-maintaned project for Mozilla Foundation products and for GNOME. I do not want to begin flame wars about menu items. And guides in a format of PO file or PDF documents have no chance to be used by any real translators.
Just a little sketch on this:
http://translatorsanonymous.tumblr.com/post/56952419359/when-my-word-file-co...
[...]
Zanata evaluates the time to translate FUEL templates in hours of Fedora translators time:
FUEL-Desktop: 4.5 hours FUEL-Mobile: 3.3 hours FUEL-Web: 3.5 hours
Total: ~11.3 hours
All translations are now empty.
There is no reason to retranslate this all over again. Just upload the existing translations. If somebody wants to improve them, he/she will do it. That's how all FOSS translation works, imho.
Again, respective language communities at Fedora can do this, instead of a non-language member does this.
Ok. But there are no links to the project repo in FUEL Zanata page, so it is most likely that the work will be done by the most novice community members from zero. Just want to say this.
Best regards, Yuri
Thanks,
Thanks for your work.
Best regards, Yuri
On 08/28/2013 04:39 PM, Yuri Chornoivan wrote:
Wed, 28 Aug 2013 13:37:09 +0300 було написано Ankit Patel ankit@redhat.com:
On 08/26/2013 06:10 PM, Yuri Chornoivan wrote:
OK. Then could you please switch off Ukrainian to not confuse Ukrainian translators? There are enough open source consistent dictionaries and comprehensive Microsoft and Apple free to use glossaries and TMs for Ukrainian. There is no need for yet another Ukrainian style guide.
Perhaps you can import the most consistent one that Fedora Ukrainian localization group follows. If Ukrainian Translation Style Guide is already available and followed by Fedora Ukrainian localization group, it would be good if you can make it available to FUEL community as well.
The guide is here (and the linked pages):
http://docs.linux.org.ua/%D0%9F%D0%B5%D1%80%D0%B5%D0%BA%D0%BB%D0%B0%D0%B4%D0...
General dictionary with no obligations on how to translate items in GNOME or Firefox :) :
http://docs.linux.org.ua/%D0%9F%D0%B5%D1%80%D0%B5%D0%BA%D0%BB%D0%B0%D0%B4%D0...
KDE translation guide:
http://docs.linux.org.ua/%D0%9F%D0%B5%D1%80%D0%B5%D0%BA%D0%BB%D0%B0%D0%B4%D0...
Community at FUEL Project engages language experts, technical experts and localization community members to prepare Translation Style and Conventions Guide. e.g. http://www.fuelproject.org/styleguide/index
Just want to say that it seems to me that it is better not touch Ukrainian part of FUEL because there were no claims from Ukrainian translation community to create such project. I am KDE coordinator and noone asking me to create such projects. There are existing and well-maintaned project for Mozilla Foundation products and for GNOME. I do not want to begin flame wars about menu items.
Well, it's not a simple task, I agree. But bringing a consensus amongst the community members especially when linguists are around to authorize one particular word, would be very much helpful, not just for the localizers but also for the native end users. Otherwise, you might find a word "File" or "Save As" translated differently in Firefox compared to KDE applications or GNOME apps.
And guides in a format of PO file or PDF documents have no chance to be used by any real translators.
Hindi, for example: * PO, PDF, ODS file formats: http://svn.fedorahosted.org/svn/fuel/language/hi/terminology/desktop/ * Online availability: http://www.fuelproject.org/terminology?utf8=%E2%9C%93&module=desktop&... * JSON format: http://www.fuelproject.org/terminology.json?utf8=%E2%9C%93&module=deskto...
and
* Availability for translators through Zanata: https://translate.zanata.org/zanata/project/view/fuel-project * Availability for translators through translatewiki: https://translatewiki.net/wiki/Translating:FUEL
Just a little sketch on this:
http://translatorsanonymous.tumblr.com/post/56952419359/when-my-word-file-co...
[...]
Zanata evaluates the time to translate FUEL templates in hours of Fedora translators time:
FUEL-Desktop: 4.5 hours FUEL-Mobile: 3.3 hours FUEL-Web: 3.5 hours
Total: ~11.3 hours
All translations are now empty.
There is no reason to retranslate this all over again. Just upload the existing translations. If somebody wants to improve them, he/she will do it. That's how all FOSS translation works, imho.
Again, respective language communities at Fedora can do this, instead of a non-language member does this.
Ok. But there are no links to the project repo in FUEL Zanata page, so it is most likely that the work will be done by the most novice community members from zero. Just want to say this.
You don't need to access the FUEL repo directly. Zanata and FUEL would do so on your behalf, just like every other project on Fedora does. Zanata provides 'upload offline translation' feature as well.
Best regards, Yuri
Thanks,
Thanks for your work.
Best regards, Yuri
Thanks,
-
Ankit Patel -
Rajesh Ranjan -
Yuri Chornoivan